Was He Saved ("Born Again")?

[Lone Wolfe]

OK, I have question that I need some input/insight on because, this evening I was talking with my neighbor who is attempting to convert from being a Catholic to a Christian and while we were talking, her husband said I left him totally questioning his faith as a Christian and I would hate to think I did that to anyone??? Here's what took place.

His wife and I were discussing being saved "born again" and baptism and this is where things kind of went down hill for her husband? She asked how to become a Christian and I explained it as best I could about how to be saved (confessing by mouth that she believes in God, that she believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, that He rose from the dead and accended to Heaven, to ask God for forgiveness and then ask Him to come into her heart and walk with her all the days of her life) and that she needs to be baptized and finally she needed to read the Word daily and find a good Bible based church that teaches the Word.

Her husband said he didn't do things that way and that he was a Christian but, now he had his doubts after 45 years because of what I said to her? He said he attended a Presbyterian church his whole life and that's not how they did it. When I asked what they did, he said they did the Christian Ceremony and then had water sprinkled on their heads 3 times to represent the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and therefore he was baptized. When I asked him what a Christian Ceremony was, he explained that the minister (who he said is called the Reverend) asked everyone in the congregation in this ceremony if they believed in God, if they believed in Jesus and if they believed in the Holy Spirit and if they all did, then everyone was to say, "I do" and the ceremony ended and they were all Christians from then on. I have never heard of this???

So, my question is this? Was he saved "born again" by doing what was explained here? He asked me if he was saved "born again" and I told him I was only aware of the way I had explained it to him and that I was not the one to say yes or no if he was a true Christian and he immediately became bummed and said I now have him questioning his own faith as a Christian??? What is your take on this whole event if you don't mind sharing your input/insight please? Thanks so much!

It is my personal opinion that he is not saved nor was he properly baptized however, I did not tell him that and we moved onto other subjects because I could see he was really distraught and I felt terrible.

 

[blackribbon]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Now read that carefully. Does that include any ritual where you actually even confess anything or DO anything? No, it say that whoever believes in him is saved. It is the choice to recognize that Jesus is Lord of the Universe ... and Lord over each of our lives that saves us. No ritual or action necessary...or else Jesus lied to the criminal on the cross when he promised him he would be in paradise that night.

Note: Baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation. Water baptism is an outward expression to show the world that you have chosen Christ. (Again, think of the criminal on the cross).

Each denomination has come up with its own ritual for showing or proving that one has chosen to be a Christian, but doing the ritual doesn't save you if you haven't made the decision to believe. When I talk about salvation with someone, it is more focused on what they actually believe and how it lines up with the Word of God. Belief is the only requirement. All the other things are a measure of the quality of our commitment and the quality of the life we live. I also personally believe that this also will be measured to determine our rewards in Heaven...but absolutely not figured in to our salvation.

Now if you truly believe that Jesus is GOD and understands how BIG that is, I believe that a life will show the fruits of that belief...how can it not?

And last I checked, Catholism is a Christian religion....but like many other denominations of Christianity, there are Christian Catholics and Catholics that follow the rituals without the heart commitment so they are not really Christians. I have seen this in every "flavor" of Christian church I have ever attended...the people that are depending on their works to get them into Heaven and not on God's grace.

So, is your neighbor saved? Does he believe that God is GOD ... in complete control of the universe ... and that Jesus is God, sinless and actually lived and died on a cross in order to save us from the fate that we deserve? Only he knows this. I'd quit discussing doctrine and what rituals he has gone through and actually sit down with him and discuss who he sees God and Christ as...it is what he believes right at this moment that matters most.

I can state issues I have with the rituals that exist in almost any church ... but it is not the rituals which save anyone. However, when talking to someone from a church that does have a lot of rituals, I'd take some time to learn about WHY the church does these rituals and what they symbolize. It also helps you understand what they do believe so you can have intelligent conversations. Just like it would be stupid to send missionaries into a foreign country and first expect them to learn the English language so that you can then teach them about Christ. Sometimes we need to learn the Christian "language" of those we talk to and want to reach. And as foreign and strange as some things in another denomination might look, there is history, message, and value to these rituals if you bother to look.

If your friend's Presbyterian rituals bother you, then do you also doubt the salvation of the Pilgrims and other Puritan people that originally founded this country? These religions where the predecessors of the Presbyterian church and were more "strict" and "stiff collared" than what your neighbor describes. The differences we are looking at are more "cultural" than problems within a particular religion.

The beauty with being a technology based society is that you can learn the history of the Presbyterian church (or any other) and understand what they believe with a simple google search without leaving the comfort of your home.

Jesus was a Jewish. He wasn't Presbyterian, or Baptist, or Catholic, or even Open-Bible or non-denominational. The people who genuinely follow him are Christians...so anyone that does follow him is Christian regardless of which building they park their rears in on Sunday or what label they claim.

 

[dayhiker]

I agree with all the ceremonies and thoughts expressed here. Each church seems to like a certain way of expressing our commitment to Christ. Some people love rituals and so some churches have really good rituals around following Christ. Some people are mystics and so some churches have a very personal way of expressing following Christ. Others are intellectual and so like a church that teaches a lot of doctrine. Then there are the doers who want to be out there helping other people that are struggling, so there are churches that have what has been called the social gospel.

In some ways I've been a part of many of those movements. The last few years I've just been saying do you love Jesus and people. I think they all work. Take the social gospel that was a very negative phrase when I was young around the churches I attended. Jesus said if we do a good deed to someone we have done it unto Jesus. Heb.6 has the same thought. We were so narrow minded that we were ignoring one of the great instructions in the Bible. Today, I'm trying to accept all of what the Bible says and not squeeze it thru some narrow theological trap.

 

[singpeace]

One simply must BELIEVE and confess that he believes. God is looking on the heart. A person can become a Christian without saying a word - it's what is in his heart that counts.

Ceremonies and traditions are helpful to a lot of people because it marks an occasion - solidifies and validates to them the truth of what has happened.

Believing in Christ as one's Lord and Savior, and at some point, telling someone that you believe it is all that is required for someone to be saved.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

God made the israelites to have passover because He knows we are short minded and forgetful and He did not want them to forget what He had done for them.
IMO rituals are more for us than for God. God does not need us to do a certain set of rituals to become a Christian or whatever. Sometimes WE need to do them to convince ourselves what we are doing is real.

The ONLY thing we can DO to be saved is BELIEVE. Beyond that we cannot do any rituals that make us more of a Christian or less of one because we did not do them.

All the "rules" and rituals they had in the OT? The PEOPLE made most of those. When God made a list for us (the ten commandments) it wasn't 645 things it was TEN. And then when Jesus came and was asked what the greatest commandment was, He said Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. He never said, "make sure you get baptized or you aren't saved". Whenever I am in doubt, I look to what Jesus said (or didn't say). WE are the ones that make it complicated, not God.
If someone believes with their last breath...IMO they are saved! Period end of story. If they die the next moment after they say "I believe" God will not tell them when they reach the other side, that it's really too bad they waited so long, because they didn't get baptized.
Baptizm is an outward sign for US that WE are professing to the world that we believe in Jesus and what He did for us. But it is not a requirement to go to heaven or spend eternity with God. Is it a good idea to get baptized? Yes I think it is, but if my brother doesn't think so, but he believes that Jesus died on the cross for him, my brother is still saved and only God can judge whether he should have got baptized or not.

 

[Lone Wolfe]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Now read that carefully. Does that include any ritual where you actually even confess anything or DO anything? No, it say that whoever believes in him is saved. It is the choice to recognize that Jesus is Lord of the Universe ... and Lord over each of our lives that saves us. No ritual or action necessary...or else Jesus lied to the criminal on the cross when he promised him he would be in paradise that night.

Note: Baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation. Water baptism is an outward expression to show the world that you have chosen Christ. (Again, think of the criminal on the cross).

Each denomination has come up with its own ritual for showing or proving that one has chosen to be a Christian, but doing the ritual doesn't save you if you haven't made the decision to believe. When I talk about salvation with someone, it is more focused on what they actually believe and how it lines up with the Word of God. Belief is the only requirement. All the other things are a measure of the quality of our commitment and the quality of the life we live. I also personally believe that this also will be measured to determine our rewards in Heaven...but absolutely not figured in to our salvation.

Now if you truly believe that Jesus is GOD and understands how BIG that is, I believe that a life will show the fruits of that belief...how can it not?

And last I checked, Catholism is a Christian religion....but like many other denominations of Christianity, there are Christian Catholics and Catholics that follow the rituals without the heart commitment so they are not really Christians. I have seen this in every "flavor" of Christian church I have ever attended...the people that are depending on their works to get them into Heaven and not on God's grace.

So, is your neighbor saved? Does he believe that God is GOD ... in complete control of the universe ... and that Jesus is God, sinless and actually lived and died on a cross in order to save us from the fate that we deserve? Only he knows this. I'd quit discussing doctrine and what rituals he has gone through and actually sit down with him and discuss who he sees God and Christ as...it is what he believes right at this moment that matters most.

I can state issues I have with the rituals that exist in almost any church ... but it is not the rituals which save anyone. However, when talking to someone from a church that does have a lot of rituals, I'd take some time to learn about WHY the church does these rituals and what they symbolize. It also helps you understand what they do believe so you can have intelligent conversations. Just like it would be stupid to send missionaries into a foreign country and first expect them to learn the English language so that you can then teach them about Christ. Sometimes we need to learn the Christian "language" of those we talk to and want to reach. And as foreign and strange as some things in another denomination might look, there is history, message, and value to these rituals if you bother to look.

If your friend's Presbyterian rituals bother you, then do you also doubt the salvation of the Pilgrims and other Puritan people that originally founded this country? These religions where the predecessors of the Presbyterian church and were more "strict" and "stiff collared" than what your neighbor describes. The differences we are looking at are more "cultural" than problems within a particular religion.

The beauty with being a technology based society is that you can learn the history of the Presbyterian church (or any other) and understand what they believe with a simple google search without leaving the comfort of your home.

Jesus was a Jewish. He wasn't Presbyterian, or Baptist, or Catholic, or even Open-Bible or non-denominational. The people who genuinely follow him are Christians...so anyone that does follow him is Christian regardless of which building they park their rears in on Sunday or what label they claim.

Whoa there Nelly! I never said my neighbor's rituals bother me? I said I never heard of a "Christian Ceremony" and had no idea what he was talking about??? I simply quoted from the Bible what Jesus said about becoming a believer and showed him the scriptures. I then explained the narrow road idea along with the wide road and he quickly became offended saying that's what he hates about most Christians, that they are always comparing themselves to one another as to who is the better Christian and it was at that point that I saw it was time to change the subject because he was no longer getting the message of how to become a believer according to the Word.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Whoa there Nelly! I never said my neighbor's rituals bother me? I said I never heard of a "Christian Ceremony" and had no idea what he was talking about??? I simply quoted from the Bible what Jesus said about becoming a believer and showed him the scriptures. I then explained the narrow road idea along with the wide road and he quickly became offended saying that's what he hates about most Christians, that they are always comparing themselves to one another as to who is the better Christian and it was at that point that I saw it was time to change the subject because he was no longer getting the message of how to become a believer according to the Word.

He IS a believer according to the word. He BELIEVES!

 

[blackribbon]

Whoa there Nelly! I never said my neighbor's rituals bother me? I said I never heard of a "Christian Ceremony" and had no idea what he was talking about??? I simply quoted from the Bible what Jesus said about becoming a believer and showed him the scriptures. I then explained the narrow road idea along with the wide road and he quickly became offended saying that's what he hates about most Christians, that they are always comparing themselves to one another as to who is the better Christian and it was at that point that I saw it was time to change the subject because he was no longer getting the message of how to become a believer according to the Word.

I'm sorry I misunderstood. It sounds like he might need to doubt his salvation if your neighbor is connecting his Christianity to a ritual. I have family members who are Presbyterian and a 'Christian ceremony' does sound possible within the realms of how they practice...but it isn't the ceremony that saves them but rather the heart change that they are professing. And it is my experience (but only from my opinion) that this kind of church isn't always real good and expressing that (or sometimes even understanding that). I'd say the fact that he got disturbed when presented with the truth that says the most.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

what do you mean blackribbon? I'm not following

 

[Lone Wolfe]

So correct me if I'm misunderstanding what is being said here that, as long as he said "I do" to the minister's ceremonial speech, he IS saved in your opinions?

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit".

This clearly tells me that we must be baptized and it is not an option to be a believer? It surprises me how many Christians today say that being baptized is not a requirement? If it were not required, then why was Jesus baptized? When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit came upon Him in the form of a dove from Heaven.

 

[blackribbon]

He IS a believer according to the word. He BELIEVES!

My dad thinks he believes and will say that he believes....but he doesn't believe in the Bible God, he believes in a god that he invents as he goes...one that makes his life comfortable. His main guidance is from a "spiritual advisor" whom he claims is his personal angel. He also is big into his "past lives".

Guess what?....he doesn't believe and he isn't saved even if he talks about Jesus and occasionally reads his Bible...(or at least the gospels because he tore that out of a Bible and threw the rest away calling it garbage and unnecessary.)

 

[Lone Wolfe]

I'd say the fact that he got disturbed when presented with the truth that says the most.

Well, that's the way I took it also. He immediately became irritated when I read what the scripture said and that to me was a huge sign.

 

[Lone Wolfe]

I question his being a true Christian (not judge him) simply because of many things he does and how he lives his life as well. He has always claimed to be a Christian when he's around me yet, the man refuses to work (coming up with countless ridicilous reasons as to why), he indulges in drugs and booze and he cheats on his wife. He claims he left his church because of what the minister does, which is exactly what he does since I've known him and I find this sad.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

So how come the thief on the cross didn't have to be baptized and yet Jesus said to him "today you will be with me in paradise" ?

 

[blackribbon]

There is a fine line here because I used to get disturbed (and sometime still do) when certain churches challenged my salvation because I couldn't "date" it or point to a day when I made the choice. The honest answer is that I don't remember ever NOT believing and when my mother confronted me at about age 11, I was shocked to learned that there were people who didn't believe that Jesus was a real man who died on a real cross and was really God. I am sure that I made a choice...but it was when I was young and no, I didn't have a life altering experience. I resented the people that insisted that I pray the sinner's prayer to "make sure". I think that is the closest I ever felt to turning my back on God because, even at that young age, I recognized how stupid the ritual was...they were more concerned that I followed "the recipe" than what I said I believed. (Now I am not even implying that you did this, Wolfe just making an observation).

I also rebelled against getting a submersion baptism until I was in my late teens because it felt like it was more about everyone else making sure I was saved and not MY choice. I felt my life should be evidence enough. When I did, I felt nothing however, I did it to make my mother happy...again, I thought the concept of "professing my faith" was stupid when I felt like I had believed for years...and was living it.

I hate joining new churches because it seems like someone always raises their eyebrows at my story. I do not claim to not having my "down" moments...but for my entire life, God has always been a part of my decision making process...and I resent that for some reason, that isn't a good thing because my conversion testimony is almost non-existent.

 

[Lone Wolfe]

So how come the thief on the cross didn't have to be baptized and yet Jesus said to him "today you will be with me in paradise" ?

Well, I would say the obvious reason was the situation the thief was in?

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Well, I would say the obvious reason was the situation the thief was in?

So if baptizm is a must do then why didn't Jesus tell him he was sorry that he would really like him to go to heaven but since he couldn't get baptized then there was nothing He could do, rules are rules and all?

Blackribbon, I feel like you do in some respects. I have always believed as far back as I can remember and I cannot pinpoint a date. I can tell you when I got baptized but not the year off the top of my head. I DID feel something when I got baptized but to ME, I understand baptizm to be an outward testimony of my professing my faith. I do not have a miraculous life changing testimony but GOD knows MY heart. I would probably laugh if someone tried to tell me I wasn't saved because I didn't do some ritual. I believe we should want to be baptized but I do not believe that we are not saved until we do.

 

[Lone Wolfe]

Well, I've been baptized twice in my adult life with once being in a Penecostal church and once being in a non-denominational Christian church.

The 1st time I was baptized was because it is required as part of your salvation (believe it or not) and I had just become a believer in Jesus Christ therefore, I did as Jesus did by getting baptized.

The 2nd time I was baptized was because I had been a "back-slider" after walking away from the church for so many years and since I had re-dedicated my life to Jesus again, I felt being baptized was once again required of me.

This is why I mentioned when I first came here to this forum that I feel the need to be baptized again because, once again I walked away from the church and in recent months re-dedicated my life to Jesus so, I want to do as Jesus did and be baptized as part of my salvation. That is a personal choice because I was baptized before but, since I walked away from it all... I'm required (in my heart) to be baptized again as soon as I find a church family where I intend to stay.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

Well that's a YOU requirement, not necessarily a God requirement so.....there is absolutely no where in the bible that states you must be baptized multiple times like if you walk away and come back and we disagree on whether it is required at all so....

 

[blackribbon]

So if baptizm is a must do then why didn't Jesus tell him he was sorry that he would really like him to go to heaven but since he couldn't get baptized then there was nothing He could do, rules are rules and all?

Blackribbon, I feel like you do in some respects. I have always believed as far back as I can remember and I cannot pinpoint a date. I can tell you when I got baptized but not the year off the top of my head. I DID feel something when I got baptized but to ME, I understand baptizm to be an outward testimony of my professing my faith. I do not have a miraculous life changing testimony but GOD knows MY heart. I would probably laugh if someone tried to tell me I wasn't saved because I didn't do some ritual. I believe we should want to be baptized but I do not believe that we are not saved until we do.

I understood that it was an outward profession of my faith...but at that point in my life, it felt like it would be not unlike reading "Dick and Jane" out loud to prove that I really knew how to read when I really could read and comprehend Shakespeare.

It also bothered me that people were so hung up on it....I believed then (and really still believe) that at that point in my walk, my "profession" was really the life I led. I think the baptism was more about everyone else...and me PROVING my salvation instead PROFESSING it. Completely the wrong message to be giving a teenager or even a baby Christian.

My grandparents were the strongest Christians I've even known...and yet, as Lutherans, I imagine they only got the baby sprinkling that is standard in that church. Their life was their testimony in a way that a water dunking never could be.