Warning signs from God?

[RogerS]

Good morning,

Although I do believe in God, rationally I find it very hard to believe in Christianity. However, sometimes certain “coïncidences” occur that could be interpreted as a warning sign. I wonder what your view is on this. To illustrate my points, below I have some examples:

Example 1

A few years ago, after having read an entire children’s Bible in 1 day and asking God for a sign, I was awake for an entire night thinking about religion. When I finally fell asleep in the morning, I got a dream. A very clear dream; a dream like I had never had before. I felt a hand om my shoulder. Afterwards, I was pulled into the air. I heard the wind around me, and finally I heard God (at least that’s how I interpreted it) speaking to me. With a loving but authoritative voice. This dream felt very real to me. At the question where I asked whether I should continue living my life the way I had been living it the last months, I heard a clear “no”. However, no reason was given why and there was no reference to Christianity in that dream.
After this special experience, I never experienced anything like this before.

Example 2

I had always wondered what my behavior should be around women in this time where I don’t really know what I believe. What do you do when you’re spending a lot of time finding the true religion, but you’re not (or not yet) a believer of it? This has always been a struggle.

At a particular morning, I had the thought in my head that said “your faith will currently be tested”. Of course this can be interpretered broadly; you could have someone asking you what you believe, or you could encounter some kind of temptation that you should resist.

2 days after having this thought, I met a very attractive woman in a bar, that I kissed that night. A woman that possibly didn’t have very serious intentions. Possibly someone to watch out for.

The morning after I met her, I had the following text (from Billy Idol) in my head, that I also had in my head the night before: “I'd sell my soul for you babe”. Probably I then asked God whether I should see this as a warning sign. Later, I heard a song from the Goo Goo Dolls that had a similar type of text: “I’d give up forever to touch you”.

Should I interpret this as a warning sign from God, that I shouldn’t be dating the wrong woman / not have sex before marriage, because this can have disastrous consequences? Or is this a chain of coïncidences because I had been searching for answers on this topic for a long time already?

Example 3

I had a dream that had something to do with wolves, and after that a text in my head saying “they left Jesus for wolves”. I then searched what the Bible said about wolves. Among other texts, they’re saying the following thing:

I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

After this text, I asked God whether he could tell me whether this was a sign and went to Facebook. Then I saw a video of a sheep that chased away a wolf.

This could be interpreted as a sign from Jesus saying “be careful not to be with the wrong people. Follow me, at the end I’ll chase all the evil out of the world”.

My question is: would you interpret such things as warnings from God? When God gives you a sign, would He always make sure it’s 100% clear?

Examples 2 and 3 could be explained as a coïncidence. Especially when you’re someone looking like me that’s searching for God and often on the lookout for signs from God. But does that makes this a coincidence? I think it’s hard. On the one hand I think I’m looking out for signs too often because rationally/scientifically I don’t see a lot of reason for believing that things like creation and the fall have really happened. On the other hand, I don’t want to ignore messages from God.

 

[Abandoned Barns]

Are you inclined to think of them as signs or coincidences?

My first thought, and clearly I do not know the mind of God, is that I'm not so sure God would be worried about effecting changes in your behavior before winning your heart and if you're not careful you can make a sign out of about anything. For example, if I want to buy a new truck, I can say "ok God, if the sun comes up in the morning, I'll take that to mean that it's ok for me to take the mortgage money and buy a new truck instead" - probably not really a sign.

That being said, the parallels you are drawing may be combining from inside of you. Something deap inside of you that knows it is missing that closeness to God trying to break into your consciences. These "coincidences" may have been purposely put in your path to help lead you to that realization. You did after all end up on a Christian message board asking about them.

To a Christian, changes to behavior come as a function of our faith. That is to say that because we love him we seek to change our behavior in ways that may further bring him glory.

 

[Abandoned Barns]

Oh hey Welcome by the way. It looks like you're new here.

 

[Tigger45]

Yes I believe God tries to get our attention in many different ways. It can be coincidences that are just too coincidental. Or awesome wonders in nature. Or through our own consciences. Reading the bible and have verses that seem to jump out to you like they are speaking right into your very soul. This previous example can also happen during a sermon.

 

[mmksparbud]

Or it could be very well, that God did speak to you telling you just exactly what He wanted you to know--for that time. You may have already had the idea that that woman was not the right kind to be with and so He clarified the matter for you. He takes us where we're at, and changes in behavior, at least for you, maybe what you need first before the love actually kicks in, we are all different. Keep searching, keep asking--faith increases with use.

 

[RogerS]

Thank you all for your replies!

Are you inclined to think of them as signs or coincidences?

My first thought, and clearly I do not know the mind of God, is that I'm not so sure God would be worried about effecting changes in your behavior before winning your heart and if you're not careful you can make a sign out of about anything. For example, if I want to buy a new truck, I can say "ok God, if the sun comes up in the morning, I'll take that to mean that it's ok for me to take the mortgage money and buy a new truck instead" - probably not really a sign.

That being said, the parallels you are drawing may be combining from inside of you. Something deap inside of you that knows it is missing that closeness to God trying to break into your consciences. These "coincidences" may have been purposely put in your path to help lead you to that realization. You did after all end up on a Christian message board asking about them.

To a Christian, changes to behavior come as a function of our faith. That is to say that because we love him we seek to change our behavior in ways that may further bring him glory.

When I look at my 2nd and 3rd example, I'm inclined to think of them as coïncidence. But that primarily has to do with the fact that, rationally, I find so many stories of the Bible hard to believe, like creation, the fall, etcetera. That makes it for me also hard to believe that these things could be a sign, because I find it hard to believe in Christianity in general.

But I am definitely very insecure about this. I don't want to ignore any messages from God.

 

[RogerS]

Or it could be very well, that God did speak to you telling you just exactly what He wanted you to know--for that time. You may have already had the idea that that woman was not the right kind to be with and so He clarified the matter for you. He takes us where we're at, and changes in behavior, at least for you, maybe what you need first before the love actually kicks in, we are all different. Keep searching, keep asking--faith increases with use.

Thanks, I will definitely keep asking God.

 

[Joshua260]

I've heard it said before that you should look for confirmations, usually at least three. Some people cite certain scriptures to support this idea. Although, I believe it's entirely possible that mischievous spirits could be "messing" with you. One rule you can count on is that (the Christian) God would not give you guidance that contradicts his word. In fact, I think it could be argued that a maximally great being would not do so.

 

[Abandoned Barns]

Thank you all for your replies!



When I look at my 2nd and 3rd example, I'm inclined to think of them as coïncidence. But that primarily has to do with the fact that, rationally, I find so many stories of the Bible hard to believe, like creation, the fall, etcetera. That makes it for me also hard to believe that these things could be a sign, because I find it hard to believe in Christianity in general.

But I am definitely very insecure about this. I don't want to ignore any messages from God.

Well then let me ask you this: would you prefer that they were signs or coincidences?

Because really, they could be either and its what gets written to your heart which ultimately makes it one or the other. There are sins, I believe, that are like this too. Others may disagree, but you'll find that things like having a beer are perfectly okay for some Christians, but sinful to others. Not really because there are different Christianites but because there are different Christians. If to you it's a a sin, then it's a sin. Likewise, if to you it's a sign, then its probably a sign, because I am certain that if God didn't want you to take is as as sign, that he would be capable of preventing you from seeing it as so.

I'm also curious, from a logical standpoint, why, assuming these were signs, your assumption, as a non-Christian, is that they would be "Christian" signs? Why not Jewish signs, or Buddhist signs or Scientology signs?

Whenever non-Christians talk about things in terms of being "rational", I'm always reminded of myself not too very long ago. It took me a long time to understand that faith and logic aren't diametric opposites, there not mutually exclusive, but you can't use one to get to the other. Just as you can't reach a logical conclusion from the perspective of what you personally believe:

you cannot come to faith from the perspective of what you believe to be rational. God's too big to fit inside a math equation or scientific proof and I just don't think you can find him through those means. Faith requires faith and I get that the logical person balks at that, because I was the logical person that balked at that. But the truth is that we use faith everyday regardless of how we feel about God. For example, a few years ago I made the very bad mistake of choosing to allow my wife to come into the doctor's office with me when receiving the results of my blood tests. "Boarder line high triglycerides" the nurse said. Do you know how to tell if any given food has triglycerides in it - it doesn't taste like my front lawn!

Now, whether or not my wife was aware of it, there was an entire process, a long chain of events, in which she choose to place her faith that day. Faith that that nurse grabbed the right file. Faith that the technician who sampled my blood didn't just get back from lunch at Hardee's and, forgetting to wash their hands, accidentally get some extra triglycerides in my vile. Faith that the lab to which they sent my blood actually knew how to test it. Faith that their machines were calibrated correctly. Faith that the scientist and engineers who designed those machines did so in such a way that the machines actually were testing what they thought they were testing. Faith in the schools and the teachers who taught all these people how to do their jobs. That's a lot of faith. There's no way that my wife could have personally understood each aspect of the chain of events leading to that nurse telling me that I had boarder line high triglycerides in my blood. No way that she could have personally reached a logical conclusion that they were correct, but that hasn't changed the fact that I haven't been able to openly eat a cheeseburger in two years!

Faith in God works like that too. We can say "I'll believe, when I am given logical, rational evidence to believe" but we ourselves reserve the right to define what is logical and rational. So we can say "alright God, if you want me to believe in you, then when I walk out my front door this morning, let there be a levitating rock hovering above my front lawn" and let's say you walk out your front door and there is a levitating rock hovering above your front lawn. The person with faith is going to say "well, I asked for it and there it is", but the person without is probably not going to say that. They're probably going to first search for the least extraordinary, "rational" explanation; rub their eyes to make sure they are working properly, or pinch themselves to make sure it's not a dream. Then they're going to search there minds for slightly more extraordinary, but still rational explanations; "someone's playing a trick on me. I saw this in a movie once and there must be some transparent strings suspending the rock - it's an illusion". Next they reach for even more extraordinary explanations but still based on what they themselves can understand; "somehow the rock must contained ferrous material and somehow something which has been magnetized is flying above it attracting it, or in the ground repelling it. I should call NASA or something". Finally they'll probable resolve to accept that there is an extraordinary, but still explicable reason they they just don't understand; "well, I don't understand it, but somebody smarter than me does, I should call the University". That's faith; and where we choose to put our faith is in what we're going to have faith, but what's for certain is that we all have faith.

Just my $0.02

 

[RogerS]

Thanks a lot for your reply, again.

Well then let me ask you this: would you prefer that they were signs or coincidences?

If it's a sign, then I would like to interpret it as such, if it's a coïncidence, then I would also like to interpret it as such. Ultimately, I'm looking for truth. If God tries to give me truth by giving me signs, then I'm grateful for that.

On the other hand, I guess a part of me is hoping that they're not signs. Of course a certainty of an eternal life in the presence of God would be amazing; I would love that. But the reason that a part of me is hoping that they're not signs is that, if they are truly a sign, I currently can't match them with the things I believe rationally; reading the Bible (at least until now) hasn't given me the idea that these texts actually represent the truth, and currently I feel like my faith is more non-Christian than Christian. So where would these signs fit in then? For years, I've been wanting some certainty in my life so that I know what decisions I should take. What if I find a nice woman right now - a potential relationship? Should I have sex with her? I don't have any guidelines right now. If I wouldn't be thinking about Christianity, I'd think "fine because I really like this woman". While as a Christian that's not the mindset you should have. Right now I feel a lot of uncertainty in every decision I have to take.

I'm also curious, from a logical standpoint, why, assuming these were signs, your assumption, as a non-Christian, is that they would be "Christian" signs? Why not Jewish signs, or Buddhist signs or Scientology signs?

Good question. If you look at my 3 examples, the dream in the first example doesn't include any Christian-related theme, but it happened right after spending a lot of time reading and thinking about Christianity, and having asked God for a sign. In the 2nd example a woman is involved where a woman was sexually interested in me. Something the Bible disapproves of. Though it's definitely not the only religion in which sex before marriage is prohibited. In the 3rd example, a sheep was present. Given the fact that Jesus is often referred to as "the lamb", you could link that to Christianity.

Plus the fact that, possibly because Christianity is the most dominantly present religion in my country (after non-religion), that's the religion I would consider first when thinking about any religion. Honestly, I didn't learn that much about other religions.

It took me a long time to understand that faith and logic aren't diametric opposites, there not mutually exclusive, but you can't use one to get to the other. Just as you can't reach a logical conclusion from the perspective of what you personally believe

Okay, but can they contradict each other? Can your heart love Jesus even though your rational mind thinks the stories in the Bible are not true?

 

[Inkfingers]

Although I do believe in God, rationally I find it very hard to believe in Christianity.

When you realise that God is sovereign over all that happens, and that only Christianity has God Himself taking the punishment for sin, you are left with no option other than Christianity.

No other deity in any religion has ever stepped up to the mark and paid the price for sin in the world He created. It's the ultimate act of responsibility that shows how the buck stops with God.

And unless that deity were then raised from the dead afterwards it would show that sin itself was a greater power than God (and so deny God's sovereignty). Jesus being raised from the dead is testimony that God is sovereign over ALL.

Therein is the salvation in Christianity; the recognition that God is sovereign over all that happens, that Jesus paid the price of all sin (and, as God, is the only one who ever could pay the price), and that Jesus then rose from the dead in testimony that God is sovereign over all that occurs.

Reason can point you to the truth, and the truth can set you free - but whether you accept the truth or not is down to the grace of God.

 

[Messy]

I interpret it as warnings from God. I was saved through signs, first I thought it was coincidences, but it was just too coincidental.
Ian McCormack heard an audible Voice when he was an atheist and God taught him to pray the Lord's prayer, so he got saved.
CBN TV - Ian McCormack: The Perfect Wave

 

[RogerS]

When you realise that God is sovereign over all that happens, and that only Christianity has God Himself taking the punishment for sin, you are left with no option other than Christianity.

No other deity in any religion has ever stepped up to the mark and paid the price for sin in the world He created. It's the ultimate act of responsibility that shows how the buck stops with God.

And unless that deity were then raised from the dead afterwards it would show that sin itself was a greater power than God (and so deny God's sovereignty). Jesus being raised from the dead is testimony that God is sovereign over ALL.

Therein is the salvation in Christianity; the recognition that God is sovereign over all that happens, that Jesus paid the price of all sin (and, as God, is the only one who ever could pay the price), and that Jesus then rose from the dead in testimony that God is sovereign over all that occurs.

Reason can point you to the truth, and the truth can set you free - but whether you accept the truth or not is down to the grace of God.

You're taking several assumptions here:

- God is sovereign over all that happens
- People themselves are to blame for sin
- People need punishment for this sin
- Jesus paid the price for this sin and was raised from the dead

Without giving good argumentations as to why these assumptions are true, I can't see this as a solid rational argument, I'm sorry....

Furthermore, when you look around you, do you think it's people that choose whether to believe or not? I know some people (and I'm not including myself) for whom the Bible is just as true as Hansel and Grettel or Lord of the Rings. They see it as a fairytale. Can you really say that these people made the choice of not believing?

 

[RogerS]

I interpret it as warnings from God. I was saved through signs, first I thought it was coincidences, but it was just too coincidental.
Ian McCormack heard an audible Voice when he was an atheist and God taught him to pray the Lord's prayer, so he got saved.
CBN TV - Ian McCormack: The Perfect Wave

Thanks, I will watch this video later. Can you describe how you were saved through signs?

 

[Inkfingers]

You're taking several assumptions here

Not at all.

God is sovereign over all that happens.

Sin is believing that God is not sovereign over all that happens.

Death is the consequence of sin because sin is a denial of the foundation of all life.

As God is sovereign over all that happens, only He could ever pay the price for sin.

But in paying the price he could not stay dead (as that would deny him being sovereign over all that happens).

Hence Jesus rose from the dead after paying the price for sin. He rose as testimony that God is still sovereign over all.

Salvation comes then in accepting Jesus as Lord (sovereign over all that happens), Saviour (payer in full of the price of sin), and raised (testament that he is sovereign).

And whether we accept that or not is down to God's gift of grace (because God is sovereign over ALL that happens).

The only thing there you might claim is an "assumption" is the first bit (God being sovereign of all that occurs) as the rest flows from that being the truth. The catch, for you, is that it isn't an assumption as the orderly nature of the universe is itself testimony of an intelligence directing all that happens (which is why the universe can be reduced to a flow of information, and why it is understandable by science and reason).

Furthermore, when you look around you, do you think it's people that choose whether to believe or not? I know some people (and I'm not including myself) for whom the Bible is just as true as Hansel and Grettel or Lord of the Rings. They see it as a fairytale. Can you really say that these people made the choice of not believing?

People don't freely choose what to believe. They cannot. God is sovereign over all that happens - so whether people come to believe or not is down to whether God makes them do so.

 

[Messy]

Thanks, I will watch this video later. Can you describe how you were saved through signs?

I just asked for things to happen for a year, I was 14, I asked for grades like if I don't get a 8.3 I don't believe in God and it all happened, a few times a week, once I was too lazy to do my homework and the teacher didn't show up after I asked for it, such things. Not spectacular, but just all the things I asked a year long happened and then I was convinced that He existed and I went to a church and they taught me I needed Jesus and needed to be saved. I didn't know anything about that, I thought I was saved when I believed He existed, I prayed the sinner's prayer there after a few months when I understood what they were talking about and got saved.

 

[Abandoned Barns]

Thanks a lot for your reply, again.

It is absolutely my pleasure.

Ultimately, I'm looking for truth.

This is precisely why I believe the two (faith and logic) are not diametrically opposed; because their goal is one and the same. If, either as Christians or non-Christians, our aim is the pursuit of truth, then we should not be afraid of any truthful examination having that as its goal. One of things which always gives me pause is when Christians or non-Christians both, dismiss, out of hand any assertion of the outside simply because it is a non-Christian or Christian notion. For example, as a Christian, I believe in Creationism, but I will admit that I sometimes have doubts. There are Christians who will scoff reflexively and dismiss any non-creationist argument as being so ridiculous as to not even warrant their consideration. Well, no its not; carbon dating, archaeology, paleontology, astronomy; these are highly reputable fields, employing highly intelligent people, who simply cannot all be conspiring together to lie to me. The arguments against a creationist origin are strongly logical and compelling. I, for one, don't think there is any thing wrong with admitting that. But it comes down to where I choose to place my faith.

It seems odd to me therefore that anyone would consider any two pursuits with the discovery of truth as their goal to be mutually exclusive - if indeed their motive of the discovery of truth was pure. I think anyone who without reason adheres to the conclusions of any singular source to be foolish. It's sorta the same as choosing your belief system the same way you choose a favorite baseball team and arbitrarily defend it and it's actions without ever really considering them - would National League fans be so incline to argue against the designated hitter if it were available to their team or would Yankee fans be so opposed to a salary cap if their team didn't have 200 hundred million dollars to spend on their player salary? We do it a lot - I'm a Yankee fan, whatever that means. I'm a Republican, whatever that means. I'm a scientist, whatever that means, I'm a Christian, whatever that means. We figure other, smarter, people, who seem to be like the sort of person we would like to be, have done the thinking for us so we'll just jump on-board and enjoy the title, without having to go through the anguish of thinking of things for ourselves. I can remember in college, being a student of the sciences, feeling shame for loving God, because, I felt, it made me seem unscientific. I'm over it now and to be honest I find both the snobby science student who says "oh, I think that's cute that you still believe in God" equally as repulsive as the Christian who sits in bible study bragging "Ah, why do we even look at the evolution theories when they're so blatantly wrong" just to impress the others in attendance with his blind devotion to the bible.

Science, Medicine, Engineering, Mathematics, Philosophy; these are noble pursuits which I believe to be gifts from God, that we may be better able to understand his gifts of life and the world to us, but they are institutions of men and are therefore fallible. The problem occurs when we develop so much trust in their methods that we actually begin to elevate their truths to being divine. Let me ask you this; have they ever lied to you? Well, not lied, but have you ever subsequently found their findings to be wrong? Has they ever told you that the world was flat or that red meat and whole milk were good for you? That the Titanic was unsinkable or the twin towers unbreakable? Have you ever read an article which quotes statistics in one way only to read another article a week later quoting statistics which say the exact opposite? I know little about the history of philosophy but aren't their some philosophers who say that man is divine while others say that they don't actually exist? Honestly, isn't that what all of these logic based institutions actually are - that is progressive methodologies of explaining the world about us, producing (hopefully) less wrong paradigms of it?

The bible has never lied to me. It's never changed it's mind because of new information. It never says "we're getting some new data that indicates that you shouldn't always love your neighbor as yourself now" or "previous bibles didn't understand the effects of biblical fat and cholesterol so now it's recommended that bible readings be reduced to less than three times a week". In my experience the bible has always been there and it has always been correct. In Science we talk about Beta error which is the probability that your findings may be wrong but accidentally interpreted as statistically true, but to me the bible has a much lower Beta value than Science itself does. So it's where I choose to place my faith.

Okay, but can they contradict each other? Can your heart love Jesus even though your rational mind thinks the stories in the Bible are not true?

I'd say that the fact we're having this conversation is pretty clear evidence that the can and do, but if you're asking if it's possible to be a Christian and not believe that the bible is God's living word, then my personal answer is "No, you can't". You can't simply pick the parts of being a Christian that you like and edit out the rest. It's just not the way it works. That being said I should point out that a lot of the understanding about what it means to be a Christian come after you become a Christian. I think sometimes one of the obstacles seekers find in coming to Jesus is their pre-conceived notion of what being a Christian actually means; "I could never be a Christian because I'm a scientist" or "I could never be a Christian because I'm gay". We reject the love, because we're afraid of the label that love may give us. Becoming a Christian is entirely about love. It's about putting aside the whatever label it may give us and perusing a relationship with Jesus. The truth is that we like to think of things like that as being absolute, but they are not and much or even most of the changes which occur as the result of accepting Jesus come after you accept him into your heart and the Holy Spirit begins working on your heart.

 

[RogerS]

Not at all.

God is sovereign over all that happens.

Sin is believing that God is not sovereign over all that happens.

Death is the consequence of sin because sin is a denial of the foundation of all life.

As God is sovereign over all that happens, only He could ever pay the price for sin.

But in paying the price he could not stay dead (as that would deny him being sovereign over all that happens).

Hence Jesus rose from the dead after paying the price for sin. He rose as testimony that God is still sovereign over all.

Salvation comes then in accepting Jesus as Lord (sovereign over all that happens), Saviour (payer in full of the price of sin), and raised (testament that he is sovereign).

And whether we accept that or not is down to God's gift of grace (because God is sovereign over ALL that happens).

The only thing there you might claim is an "assumption" is the first bit (God being sovereign of all that occurs) as the rest flows from that being the truth. The catch, for you, is that it isn't an assumption as the orderly nature of the universe is itself testimony of an intelligence directing all that happens (which is why the universe can be reduced to a flow of information, and why it is understandable by science and reason).

People don't freely choose what to believe. They cannot. God is sovereign over all that happens - so whether people come to believe or not is down to whether God makes them do so.

I'm not sure if God is sovereign over all that happens. With that, do you also mean that you believe God knows the future? If there would be a Christian God and God foreseeing the entire future, doesn't this mean that God creates people that He knows would go to hell?

Perhaps there is a God that set things in motion but doesn't like to intervene a lot. I don't have that knowledge. But yes, I do believe that God exists.

From your argument I still don't get why someone should pay a price for sin. Furthermore, I see your argument as a circular argument; you're trying to prove the Bible by giving reasons that come from the Bible.

Anyway, thanks for answering my question. I guess we're just dealing with complicated material here

 

[RogerS]

The arguments against a creationist origin are strongly logical and compelling. I, for one, don't think there is any thing wrong with admitting that. But it comes down to where I choose to place my faith.

Science, Medicine, Engineering, Mathematics, Philosophy (...), they are institutions of men and are therefore fallible. The problem occurs when we develop so much trust in their methods that we actually begin to elevate their truths to being divine. Let me ask you this; have they ever lied to you? Well, not lied, but have you ever subsequently found their findings to be wrong?

The bible has never lied to me. It's never changed it's mind because of new information.

It seems like you've done your homework It's true that science isn't a divine truth. However, I do think some results of science are very convincing and allow you to become almost certain about a certain topic. Furthermore, when the Bible itself doesn't change it mind and come with a second Bible to correct for the mistakes in the first one, does it make that a true thing by definition?

I think sometimes one of the obstacles seekers find in coming to Jesus is their pre-conceived notion of what being a Christian actually means; "I could never be a Christian because I'm a scientist" or "I could never be a Christian because I'm gay". We reject the love, because we're afraid of the label that love may give us.

I can imagine that pre-conceived notions can hold someone back. In my case, I think my current beliefs are the factor that holds me back mostly. On the other hand, I do believe it would be easier to attend a church service if a close friend or family member that's a Christian (I don't have any actually) would take me there, or if anyone in my close personal environment would support me in this. Still, if I would believe in Christianity at the moment, and at the moment I don't (though I'm obviously not sure about it), I would go against what pretty much everyone around me believes and become a Christian

 

[Abandoned Barns]

It seems like you've done your homework It's true that science isn't a divine truth. However, I do think some results of science are very convincing and allow you to become almost certain about a certain topic. Furthermore, when the Bible itself doesn't change it mind and come with a second Bible to correct for the mistakes in the first one, does it make that a true thing by definition?

Oh yeah, with this I agree, but don't you see that is precisely why its so important that when we set out searching for the truth we actually be willing to do the work of considering for ourselves what is true; to own it; to actually have a personal hand in our own understanding and acceptance of those things that we will hold to be true, because just as science was wrong about the world being flat, there was a time, I'm sure, that in my own small southern town church, when someone stood up and said "you know what? I don't think God wants black people to worship with us here" and probably even used scripture to make his point; and everyone agreed. Because just because something sounds scientific (Adolph Hitler's eugenics sounded scientific) or sounds Christian (David Koresh's teachings sounded Christian) doesn't make it true. Believe it or not, this is exactly what were shown to do in the bible:

11Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

I have a five year old currently destroying my house, but it seems like only yesterday I was waking up at 5:00am to give him a bottle. Our routine every morning was exactly the same (I always took the early shift because my wife always took the late shift). When he woke up I'd change him and warm his formula. I would make a fire and we'd sit together in my chair and I'd feed him, burp him, then fat, full and happy he would want to be in his swing and go back to sleep. He loved to be in this swing. It was one of those battery operated baby swings with a chair that was kinda shaped like an upside down turtle shell that you laid the baby in and it played music and had a large, colorful mobile affixed to the top. So I'd put him in his swing near the fire, start it and return to my chair to do my devotional while he settled in. What always amazed me is how he would stare directly past that large, colorful, musical mobile to just consider a stone in the wall of the hearth, or a knot in the wood of the floor. I couldn't understand and it took me a long time to realize that it was because to him all of those things: the stone, the knot in the floor and the mobile, were equally miraculous. When your that age, you have no preconceived notions - everything is a miracle and nothing is exceptional about miracles.

Roger, can you remember a time when life was entirely about love and your family and the simple things? I can. We all were there, but then we get older and the world begins to creep in. We realize that this place we live in is more complicated than we thought it was and that scares us. So what we do is come up with these little tricks to manage that complexity and fool ourselves into thinking that we're still in control. Don't kiss Mama at the bus stop or the other kids will make fun. If I pretend to be something I'm not then the cooler kids will accept me. If I tell a little lie, I can get out of the consequence of my behavior. A little cheat sheet will help me with that test at school. Everyone cheats on their taxes. It's not really cheating if my spouse never finds out. The problem is that some of these little tricks actually work so we begin to believe that we know better. That we know better than our parents. That we know better than our teachers. That we know better than God. Our way becomes the only way. And then we get still a little more older and we realize that life really is entirely about love and family and the simple things after all.

I think that's why Jesus tells us that in order to come to him, we have to come to him as children:

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

open minded, hearths full of love and with out any preconceived notion that we know better. Sometimes, in order to find real truth, we have to be willing to put aside what we think we already know.

I can imagine that pre-conceived notions can hold someone back. In my case, I think my current beliefs are the factor that holds me back mostly. On the other hand, I do believe it would be easier to attend a church service if a close friend or family member that's a Christian (I don't have any actually) would take me there, or if anyone in my close personal environment would support me in this. Still, if I would believe in Christianity at the moment, and at the moment I don't (though I'm obviously not sure about it), I would go against what pretty much everyone around me believes and become a Christian

Reminds me of this:

34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

i was like you when I got right with Jesus. Not a sole I knew really understood what the heck I was doing. They thought I was in a cult. At that time I worked and lived in my parents bar which was perhaps the very last place anyone would expect to find Jesus, but somehow I did. It was before I met my wife and I can tell you that from a worldly perspective, being the single son of bar owners, who has unsupervised open use of the bar after hours, access to a seemingly never ending supply of new waitresses and a small apartment exactly one stairway up from the end of the bar - doesn't stink. I really had it made. Then one day, in walks this new waitress, simply beautiful, but different. This girl was broken, her ex-boyfriend who had impregnated her and then abandon her during the pregnancy, found some kind of slick lawyer who found a way to take her daughter from her, and still she had this amazing sense of love about her. She drank, a lot, I think she thought at the time it was the only way she could stop feeling the pain. One day she overheard me tell my Mother that I thought I wanted to go to church and that night after work she told me her story, about how she came to Christ, about how she lost her daughter, about how she couldn't take the pain, about how she knew the changes she need to make, about how she knew what God was telling her to do, but just couldn't bring herself to do so, but mostly about Jesus. We started talking every night. I have to admit, that at first I thought we were flirting. I thought she was a little over enthusiastic, but she was beautiful, so at first I just played along. She gave me my first bible. Now, I know there are folks here who are going to look sideways at this, but every night we would close the place and out onto the bar came the beers and bibles. And we talked, and drank, but mostly talked, verse by verse we talked. I was so sure at first that she was fooling herself. So sure that what I already knew was right, but every night I understood a little bit more about what she was saying. Then one night, I had a dream and in this dream was this girl, dressed in sort of a long white dress standing in front of a light so that I could barely see her face. I heard, and assumed it was her, "Jeffrey, can't you see that I love you. Can't you see that I have always loved you?", then the girl stepped aside and the light that was behind her surrounded me. Roger, I can't explain to you that feeling, almost like for an instant I was an infant again back in my Mothers arms. So completely safe, so completely loved, so completely at peace. I knew it was Jesus.

They say that people come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime, and that's true, because shortly after my experience my friend told me that he had to stop working there because it was not what God wanted and like that, she was gone. My life changed forever that night of the dream, but I was still living amongst those who just didn't get it. They thought it was funny. Couldn't believe that me, of all people, could change in that way. They teased me and thought it was fun to tempt me back to the way I was before. Try to get me drunk. Girls throwing themselves at me. It was as if they felt that if they could do it, if they could just get me in the bed, if they could just get the new Christian to renounce his new found faith for just one night with them that it would somehow compensate for all which they hated about themselves. That somehow it would fill that emptiness inside them. That empty place were God should be, but couldn't get in. Those girls didn't want me, they just didn't want themselves. They weren't testing me, they were testing God and I don't think they even knew it - they just couldn't see past the mobile.

Friend, I promise you that folks are going to look at you sideways should you decide to fearlessly pursue the truth. It will threaten them, because on some level they will know that it is also something that they themselves should be doing. That you are from the same place as them, the same family as them, thought the same as them and now you're looking for something else will threaten their cognitive schema, because they thought that you were on their same team and if you're looking for something different then maybe there is something wrong with the team.

Anyway, you probably had quite enough of listening to me. I'll leave it off here for now. I'm enjoying talking to you and hope to hear from you back.