Warning about being spammed by Trimm ( James)

[Sephania]

I received this email from my congregational leader, he states that he believes that Trimm maybe a Matthew 7:18, as he has been sending him with unsolicited emails regarding his "Messianic NT from Original Hebrew and Aramaic." :

Someone from our congregation asked about this and this was his response:

Most Messianic Rabbis are suspicious of Trimm's claims, theology and credentials (he did not receive his doctorate at any accredited university or seminary).
As for his claims: there are no extant copies of an original Hebrew Matthew, though several early church fathers do refer to such a document. (The fact that they refer to it centuries afterward doesn't mean it actually existed.) I doubt that any serious scholars believe the Greek text was based on the Aramaic. (It is true that that an Aramaic manuscript available is older
than many Greek manuscripts, but that proves nothing.) It is true
that there are Aramaic words and Hebrew idioms in the gospels, because
Yeshua and his original disciples spoke these languages. Nevertheless,
the inspired authors of the New Covenant also quoted Septuagint, the Greek
translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, extensively.
Furthermore, the epistles were all written to Greek-speaking congregations in Greece (Corinth, Phillipi, Thessalonia) or Asia Minor (Ephesus, Colosse).

To summarize, his chart would have little credence with serious biblical scholarship. But Trimm doesn't depend on serious scholars supporting him; he relies on the buzz on the Internet. Please ignore him and urge others to do so.

I hope I offend nobody with this note. Again, my purpose is to guard the truth as I see it, and as most Messianic Rabbis that I've heard from see it.

XXXX


Disclaimer!: I myself am not familiar with this but thought I'd pass it on for others that are familiar with this work and have been wondering. There is no intention here to make anyone believe anything written above, as I really don't know the whole story.

Shalom
Zayit

 

[muffler dragon]

You should check out The Thadman's website for a little bit more depth on the Aramaic possibilities of the BH. www.aramaicNT.org

Nathan

 

[simchat_torah]

I don't think that Trimm spams. Essentially what has happened is that someone signed up for his newsletter. Its just that Trimm isn't exactly the best at removing a name once its on the list.

Now for a few comments on the specific letter you quoted:

Most Messianic Rabbis are suspicious of Trimm's claims, theology and credentials (he did not receive his doctorate at any accredited university or seminary).

I too am suspicious, but its completely unproveable either way. I see it like this: Trimm has provided his documentation "proving" his degree, and we have no proof to the contrary. To create rumors to the opposite would be infringing upon L'shon Hara, so I tend to just back off from the subject. While I too am suspect, there's no way to prove it... the University is out of business, and the records sealed. The dean of the college has sent a letter stating Trimm did in fact receive a degree... but he could be lying. Do I have any proof? No. Neither does anyone else. thus, L'shon Hara.

So... I typically keep these thoughts to myself.

As for his claims: there are no extant copies of an original Hebrew Matthew, though several early church fathers do refer to such a document.

Nor are there any Greek or Aramaic copies. What does this prove? We have a few manuscripts of each language that date roughly the same age, so going by "who's oldest" doesn't prove a darn thing. There are no Greek original copies either, so by this logic, the person writing the letter would HAVE to toss out the possibility that the manuscripts were written in Greek!

Well, this won't happen... but at least I can point out the fallicy in the logic, nu?

As for his claims: there are no extant copies of an original Hebrew Matthew, though several early church fathers do refer to such a document. (The fact that they refer to it centuries afterward doesn't mean it actually existed.)

Uhhh... there are quotations from "church fathers" that refer to the document within a century. This person is either uneducated or purposefully trying to deceive. You make the call.

Fact is, nearly every early "church father" admits that Matthew was originally penned in Hebrew. This includes "church fathers" within a century of its authorship.

I doubt that any serious scholars believe the Greek text was based on the Aramaic.

Hmm... They haven't met Steve-o... aka: Thadman
As well, I could point you to a whole slew of NT manuscript scholars who do believe the Greek was translated from the Aramaic. This is actually quite a popular belief today.

(It is true that that an Aramaic manuscript available is older
than many Greek manuscripts, but that proves nothing.)

Now this person is contradicting themselves with their comment on the Hebrew Matthew!

ROFLOLOLOLOL

Maybe they skipped logic class?

It is true
that there are Aramaic words and Hebrew idioms in the gospels, because
Yeshua and his original disciples spoke these languages. Nevertheless,
the inspired authors of the New Covenant also quoted Septuagint, the Greek
translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, extensively.

If I remember correctly, the overwhelming majority of Septuagint quotes come from Paul. However, Paul also quoted from a pagan poem, other translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, etc... depending on what point he was making at the time. He frequently flowed between styles, translations, etc... a very Rabbinic form of argumentation.

Furthermore, the epistles were all written to Greek-speaking congregations in Greece (Corinth, Phillipi, Thessalonia) or Asia Minor (Ephesus, Colosse).

Uhhh... no.
Most of the 'epistles' were written to Aramaic speaking peoples. Some, yes, spoke Greek... but all would have known Hebrew (as they would have read from the Torah scrolls every Shabbat, the Siddurim, etc.).



Unimpressed,
Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

My conclusion is that the author of the above letter is biased, lacking in logical argumentation, and uneducated... not to mention intent on committing L'shon Hara.

Had they not been biased, but open to discussing either side...
Had they presented logical arguments...
Had they brought forth educated comments...
Had they not been intent upon speaking L'shon Hara...

This letter might have had an impact. But in its form, it will only tickle the ears of those who already want to hear what it has to say.

There are already a number of serious discussions in this forum concerning the Aramaic/Hebraic original manuscripts of the NT. However, many of those involved people who were decidedly going to flame, etc... and some of those threads have been closed. I might enjoy a good healthy debate on the topic and would love to finally hear some conclusive evidence from Thadman on the issue.


Shalom,
yafet

 

[Sephania]

Unimpressed,
Yafet

It was not my intention to impress anyone, as I stated:

I myself am not familiar with this but thought I'd pass it on for others that may have and have been wondering.

 

[simchat_torah]

I didn't mean I was unimpressed with you Zayit, but the author of the letter.

sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

 

[Sephania]

My conclusion is that the author of the above letter is biased, lacking in logical argumentation, and uneducated... not to mention intent on committing L'shon Hara.

From one email you can make this conclusion? How can you know someone's intent? L'shon Hara, Isn't that exactly what you are doing?

Had they not been biased, but open to discussing either side...
Had they presented logical arguments...
Had they brought forth educated comments...
Had they not been intent upon speaking L'shon Hara...

This letter might have had an impact. But in its form, it will only tickle the ears of those who already want to hear what it has to say.

There are already a number of serious discussions in this forum concerning the Aramaic/Hebraic original manuscripts of the NT. However, many of those involved people who were decidedly going to flame, etc... and some of those threads have been closed. I might enjoy a good healthy debate on the topic and would love to finally hear some conclusive evidence from Thadman on the issue.
My post was not for debating, rather to share information and each could take it as they would. Your use of the word "serious" was not lost on me either. I believe the first post I ever made in this forum drew similar "unfriendly fire" from you Japheth when all my "intent" was, was to share with my brothers and sisters, and I have to wonder if all this attack is on the author of the letter or the author of this thread?


Shalom,yefet
Shalom indeed.

In the email I received the author stated that he had been receiving unsolicited emails looking for support of this endevour thus my use of the word spam. Also after communicating with this person JT answered quoting others that the author knows intimately using their comments as endorsements of his work. Not something I should think is honorable.

Mods as this seems to be causing contention instead of the watchword I had posted it to be, please feel free to delete this thread.
Zayit

 

[simchat_torah]

From one email you can make this conclusion? How can you know someone's intent? L'shon Hara, Isn't that exactly what you are doing?

Nope. This person is defaming an individual, stating rumors, etc which are completely unprovable... all of which is L'shon Hara.

My post was not for debating, rather to share information and each could take it as they would. Your use of the word "serious" was not lost on me either. I believe the first post I ever made in this forum drew similar "unfriendly fire" from you Japheth when all my "intent" was, was to share with my brothers and sisters, and I have to wonder if all this attack is on the author of the letter or the author of this thread?

Well, I suppose you had the audacity to share the letter...
A letter which made L'shon Hara accusations.
A letter which made some serious textual claims.
A letter which asked us to swallow some things that, simply put, were deceptive.

My comments were pointed directly towards the letter. But if you want to bring it out, sure... why did you post the letter other than to convince us of its contents? Am I supposed to believe it without question? Am I supposed to accept the unscholastic claims it makes? Am I supposed to let others here, who may not have studied the orginal manuscripts to such a degree, trust its words without question?

While you may not have intended to debate, you made some claims by posting that letter. I have questioned the claims. If you can't verify the claims the letter makes, or back up its assertations, I reccomend not posting such letters.

In the email I received the author stated that he had been receiving unsolicited emails looking for support of this endevour thus my use of the word spam.

Yes, and the only way that Trimm emails people is if they have signed up for his newsletter at his website. Spam is unwarranted email. This is not spam.

They can remove their name from his list if they really wanted to pursue it.
However, keep in mind, one must purposefully sign up for his newsletter in order to receive these emails....

Not spam. sorry.

Also after communicating with this person JT answered quoting others that the author knows intimately using their comments as endorsements of his work. Not something I should think is honorable.

1) This was not presented in the letter you gave us.
2) If this is a private matter between two individuals who know each other, why are you posting it here?
3) Again, if it is someone Trimm knows... who he is emailing... it is not spam.
4) Either you're being unclear, or there is more to the story. Why is it wrong to quote from others who endorse your work?

Mods as this seems to be causing contention instead of the watchword I had posted it to be, please feel free to delete this thread.

Threads only get deleted when they go way overboard. This thread may be locked if the mods don't see a value in it... but it won't be deleted.

Basically, you presented something which I aptly argued against... and because of that, you want it gone? Because you can't contend with what I've presented you want it to dissappear?

*sigh*

 

[Plan 9]

If you can't your get your address removed from a mailing list when you ask, then it's spam.

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm only guessing that's what is going on behind the scenes here. Maybe they didn't ask to be removed. I don't know. However, I can say that you will not receive any email from Trimm if you have not signed up for his newsletter...

But it seems like this person is in personal communication with Trimm as well. Maybe they are just mad about something personal? who knows really.

 

[Plan 9]

Yes, who knows? You yourself say that Trimm isn't exactly the best at removing names from his mailing list, and that's defined as spamming. Now, if I get e-mails from him out of the blue, and I get plenty as it is, I will know now that no friend of mine put me on his mailing list, and I'll know what to do: report him. Zayit's only trying to be helpful, not debate manuscripts or accuse anyone of L'shon Hara , and I appeciate her letting me know.

 

[ShirChadash]

Just a comment to add...

I used to be on a couple of Trimm's Yahoo groups, always on Web-only, as I hate to receive extra emails and almost always select the "read on the web" option. I was always and forever receiving emails from Trimm hawking his work, invitations to join his umpteenth Yahoo group, defense of himself against LaShon HaRa, it went on and on. Every single week for a long time I was receivng email after email from Trimm, and even when I left those Yahoo groups long ago, I was still receiving emails up until just very recently. I never signed up for Trimm's newsletter myself, and I don't recall ever receiving a newsletter email from him -- every one was either spam for his work, an invite to yet another new Yahoo group he created, or mass-mailed arguments against those who were arguing against him. I can't "prove' this, as I finally went through my email and removed everything from Trimm about a month ago, except for I think two emails regarding the LaShon HaRa accusation against those other folks who had taken him on.

FWIW,

~Z~

 

[Plan 9]

Thank you for mentioning that, Zemmy. Now I know what else to avoid.
Long before there was e-mail, I had a similar problem with snail mail. A friend put me on Rev. Ike's mailing list, and ten years later I was still on it. My friend was quite contrite when he discovered I couldn't get off the good Rev.'s mailing list, but Rev. Ike's mailings were a joy compared to the e-mailings I'm pelted with now. He sent me something only twice a month, and they were interesting in their own weird way.
In contrast, I had to completely abandon one of my e-mail addresses because the huge quantity of spam e-mails made it impossible to find actual letters from family and friends.

 

[iitb]

Just a comment to add...

I used to be on a couple of Trimm's Yahoo groups, always on Web-only, as I hate to receive extra emails and almost always select the "read on the web" option. I was always and forever receiving emails from Trimm hawking his work, invitations to join his umpteenth Yahoo group, defense of himself against LaShon HaRa, it went on and on. Every single week for a long time I was receivng email after email from Trimm, and even when I left those Yahoo groups long ago, I was still receiving emails up until just very recently. I never signed up for Trimm's newsletter myself, and I don't recall ever receiving a newsletter email from him -- every one was either spam for his work, an invite to yet another new Yahoo group he created, or mass-mailed arguments against those who were arguing against him. I can't "prove' this, as I finally went through my email and removed everything from Trimm about a month ago, except for I think two emails regarding the LaShon HaRa accusation against those other folks who had taken him on.

FWIW,

~Z~

I actually had this same problem. Now I refuse to join any Messianic Yahoo groups because of this.

 

[WildCelt]

I was also subscribed to several of his Yahoo groups, but never received email from him or anyone else on those lists after I'd unsubscribed. It does appear, however, from the short time I was subscribed that the groups were a vehicle for his personal ideas and publications. Just my impression, YMMV.

I'm not quite sure why the guy has been so villified. He's no different than the thousands of other intelligent but lonely internet nerds out there that tries too hard to get people to like them. As for his ideas, well... they speak for themselves, and I would hope we all agree that each of us can have some far out ideas at times. Most of us simply have enough sense to not publish them.

 

[simchat_torah]

I get Trimm's stuff too though I have tried to remove my email. That's why I made the comment that this is possibly where it came from. However, the person has to sign up for it in the first place... so its not totally uninvited in a way. I still get stuff from Jews for Jesus (snail mail) though I have written them probably a dozen times (and sent emails too) to exclude me from their list. I have received responses like: "You are lost without Jesus." to which they don't remove me from their list!

You see, things like this urk me. While Trimm is simply lazy and doesn't remove people from his mailing list... Jews for Jesus purposefully denies me from being removed, thinking I am 'going astray' by removing my name! I've thought of reporting them, but I don't want to get them in trouble. *sigh*

Anywho... both are wrong. I just kinda have an inclination to say one is worse than the other.

Zayit's only trying to be helpful, not debate manuscripts or accuse anyone of L'shon Hara , and I appeciate her letting me know.

Had Zayit merely left it at, "James Trimm gives unwanted emails, don't sign up with him" that would have been fine. HOWEVER, the letter had an agenda. One which I addressed and argued against. As well, while Zayit may not have committed L'shon Hara, the letter did. I don't enjoy that kind of stuff here.

You can't post something with an agenda and expect it to go without being challenged!

I challenged the intent of the letter (which was obviously to denounce the Aramaic originals) and the OP (Zayit) thought it would go without question.

Sorry, I don't play games.


Some may say that I'm being harsh. I would have done the same if someone posted a letter saying, "This person is spamming" yet the entire letter attempted to denounce Y'shua as the Messiah. Had someone posted saying, "The Pope is spamming me emails" and posted a letter attempting to prove the Torah is bunk... I certainly would have argued to the point there as well.

I'm not picking on Zayit. I'm addressing the heart of the letter. The author obviously had intentions to persuade the audience to believe the originally penned manuscripts were done in Greek. I'm not after an individual. Zayit, Justin, Hix... it doesn't matter who posted the letter, I would have made the same arguments either way.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Sephania]

I challenged the intent of the letter (which was obviously to denounce the Aramaic originals) and the OP (Zayit) thought it would go without question.

As my disclaimer at the bottom of my OP was ignored and not taken as truth I have edited my post to make it more noticable and hopefully understood. Again my intention was to share as I thought some here might be interested, I dont' know this man so I can't say either way. However Yafet you seem to be able to read my mind by stating what I think, if that is true it is a wonderful gift from HaShem, but also if it is true you would then know what you stated about knowing what I thought wasn't true.

Sorry, I don't play games.

I do, but as far as mind games, no way.

As far as this goes:

(which was obviously to denounce the Aramaic originals)

It's funny, I thought he was denouncing that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew first and foremost? If so I would question that also. Matthew was a Levite, right? so naturally he should have known Hebrew and not just the more common languages of the day. Regardless of this he did say that his intend was not to offend anyone but to "guard the truth as he saw it".

I see that this subject is a very touchy one for you Yafet and i apologize for causing you any upset, and I had no agenda but to share some info and what I thought was a good faith warning.

 

[Plan 9]

You can't post something with an agenda and expect it to go without being challenged!

An opinion, right or wrong, is not indicative of an agenda...except on this board.

Sorry, I don't play games.

I can't help but feel that when I say I'm sorry when I'm not, that's playing a game. Does that mean I have some sinister agenda?

Some may say that I'm being harsh.

Yes, some may say that.

I'm not picking on Zayit. I'm addressing the heart of the letter. The author obviously had intentions to persuade the audience to believe the originally penned manuscripts were done in Greek. I'm not after an individual. Zayit, Justin, Hix... it doesn't matter who posted the letter, I would have made the same arguments either way.

The heart of the matter was unsolicited e-mailing, and both Zemmy and Justin have had that experience.
I certainly had the impression you were picking on Zayit, and so did she. Was it worth hurting her? Will it be worth hurting Justin and Hix? Or me? Your style has been harsh over the last couple of days; it hurts your case, whatever that may be, and can drive members away who might have been sent here by G-d for help. G-d doesn't need a bulldog, and you've always shown a great deal of restraint before, wunderkind that you are. Is something wrong, Yafet? I'm worried about you.

 

[simchat_torah]

The question is...

Was it worth printing a letter that:
1) contained L'shon Hara?
and
2) carried an agenda?

No.

I am fine... I'm not attempting to be harsh. Its just that the letter did not need to be printed unless the OP wanted us to read what it contained. Merely something along the lines of "James Trimm is spamming, watch out" etc would have done the job.

But the letter was included and needs to be addressed.

 

[simchat_torah]

Tell you what... believe the agenda if you want... I wash my hands and step back, your choice. I tried to point it out, no one cared. I was interested in debating the agenda contained in the letter, but seeing as how this is stepping on toes, and people would rather post without being questioned... that's ok, I'll just leave the thread.

*bye*