War

W2L said:

Who said we should go to war with anyone? Our weapons are not carnal, neither is our warfare.

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We Christians are not going to war. Our governments are going to war.

Wars happen and will continue to happen until the end, and the wars will always have 'carnal' weapons.

dogs4thewin said:

thank you doing both can, in fact be done.

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CS Lewis as great as he was, was wrong on this point. Jesus has spoken plainly on this subject, "Resist not an evil person." The straw man argument you use is likewise used by you. Since nothing was said directly about whether or not the soldiers should leave the military it is just as strong an argument for their leaving as it is for their staying. And, it is fair to say that with their honest conversion that they did leave the job of taking men's lives and replace it with a better vocation of saving men's lives. The best teaching on the subject is the very lives of the teachers themselves who exhibited the non-resistant lifestyle and sealed that testimony with their own blood, so who do we listen to?

Albion said:

Is there some reason we can't do both?

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This probably sums it up perfectly. Unfortunately when it comes to the topic of war as well as many other social issues I find that there is a lot of confusion in the body of Christ. For some reason people feel that we cannot be in favour of war or go to war etc and the argument for it seems to be the idea that the New Testament does not teach it. Someone here has already suggested that we are no longer living in OT times so cannot apply the principles there. I suppose we might as well get rid of that part of our bibles. Many of us forget that the New Testament as we now know it took a while to be written and collated and that before that happened the only bible people had was the Old Testament with all the bloodshed that many of us now frown upon or feel ashamed about. It's like our generation wants to make apologies for what God did in the Old testament. I have even come across a post elsewhere on this forum where someone suggested that God the father wasn't the true God because of all the killings that happened in the Old testament. But the confusion I find is down to a lack of proper understanding of the word of God.

Fundamentally many people confuse God’s plan for the nations with his instructions/plans for individuals. They also mixed up about our civil responsibilities and Christian duties. God's purpose for each one of us is to come to a personal knowledge of Jesus and to grow and be conformed to his image for this is our ultimate act of worship Romans 8:29 and 12:1-2. But we do live on earth and that comes with certain responsibilities. The Lord Jesus said that it was lawful for him and his disciples not to pay temple tax, this was their kingdom right, yet in order not to cause offence (to those of this world) he chose to pay it. There are certain limitations placed upon us because we live on earth.

The believer is not supposed to go to war to fight his own cause. The bible is clear on that in many places. We are to turn the other cheek... etc. in other words if someone is trying to take advantage of us then we do sometimes have to let God deal with it. Having said that there are times when we need to speak out against wrongdoing not because we want to defend ourselves but because we want to stand against evil and expose it. The bible also teaches that.

God’s plan for the nations

1. He has created the earth to be inhabited. For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18. For the earth to continue to be inhabited we need order and the rule of law etc
   
   
2. The Lord has determined the boundaries of each nation Acts 17. To maintain those boundaries requires law enforcement and when the boundaries are threatened or encroached by another nation military action may be necessary to restore it. These will be legitimate wars.
   
   
3. Rulers are appointed for each nation to enforce the rule of law. This is also the purpose of God. Romans 13:1-2.
   
   
4. Rulers have multiple responsibilities, they ensure the rule of law and order and are vested with powers to punish those who do not comply. Romans 13:3-4. In fulfilling their duties rulers act as ministers of God in other words they act on behalf of God.
5. God has a plan for nations and it may be necessary for a nation to go to war to fulfil that plan. There are countless examples in the Old Testament and there is nothing in the New testament to suggest that he has stopped doing this. America went to war against Britain to gain independence and then to become a beacon of freedom for the whole world. America has done a lot of bad things around the world but for all its evils this is one nation that cares about the freedoms of people of other nations more than any other country I know. The independence war led to very good fruit and it is hard to argue that it should not have been fought. So if we had been alive at the time what would our prayer have been about?
   
   
6. Sometimes wars are necessary for issues other than sovereignty. Think about the American civil war fought to guarantee freedoms for slaves? What advice would we have given to Christian slaves of those times?

Whichever way you cut it this idea that Christians should be against war cannot be based on sound biblical doctrine. Unfortunately it is a humanist viewpoint.

Many people who would not go to war still want to be protected from harm. They won’t go to war but they sure do hope that someone will and instead of praying that they win the fight they want to pray for peace as though peace (the absence of wars) is some arbitrary thing that just drops from heaven when we pray. What these people forget is that God does offer peace but sometimes it must be fought for; one of the ways in which he protects nations is through their armies and through their preparedness to go to war if necessary. Even in the days when Israel was a theocracy, when they had God’s presence in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night there was a need to go to war against the Amalekites. God did not fight that battle for them. How naive to think that he did not do it for Israel yet he will do it for other nations.

Ain't it just like a generation of Solomons to forget the wars their fathers (David generation) had to fight to secure peace? It is all too easy to get all doctrinal and puritan about these things when living in a time of peace forgetting that the relative peace we now enjoy was fought for by others who went before us, poor souls they did not know they could have just prayed.

This position that Christians must not go to war nor support it is not borne out of the word of God, no, it cannot be. There is no scriptural precedence for it despite the numerous verses that have been quoted in this thread. Unfortunately all those verses apply to the believer’s walk and not his civil responsibilities. Paul wrote to slaves not to seek freedom (1 Corinthians 7:21) but to serve their masters well, especially if those masters were saved (1 Timothy 6:2). Likewise he advised masters to treat their slaves well but did not ask them to set the slaves free. That is not to say that he believed that slavery was a good thing; Paul was not writing about civil matters but about their Christian duty to one another.

But when we come to Romans 13 we see that the emphasis is on our civil duties and he highlights that we have certain roles to fulfil. In the kingdom of God we are all brothers and sisters and do not relate to each other as rulers and subjects but at a national level we do. There are those that are in power and these have certain responsibilities, likewise those of us that are subjects have our responsibilities. We must render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom, fear to whom fear, honour to whom honour. This is talking about civil responsibilities. If we get enrolled into the army voluntarily or compulsorily to fight a just war we will need to fight because that would be our civil duty under God. Likewise if our country went to war and the war was a just one, our duty would be to pray for wisdom for our leaders and military leaders that they may know how to go about it and win easily, yes win. Whilst living in peace we must pray for God to sustain it but if war breaks out and it is a just one we must pray for quick victory with hopefully minimal casualties, nevertheless victory. We do not wish that anyone would suffer but wars are sometimes the only way God can bring peace.

hokeith said:

Did John the Baptist or Jesus say anything about "dropping bombs?" No. But that's a straw man argument anyway. They said nothing about the internet, automobiles, or trips to the moon either.

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While Jesus did not, of course, refer to bombs, He made it quite clear that His followers are to reject the instrumentality of violence. For instance, He told Pilate that the reasons that His (Jesus's) followers were not using force to rescue Him was because they are citizens of a different kind of kingdom. The clear implication: To be a Kingdom of God citizen means rejecting force, even for a justifiable reason, like rescuing the innocent Jesus.

dogs4thewin said:

so does that mean that God wants us to just let people harm the innocent?

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I am just pointing out what Jesus said. No one said the path of the Gospel would conform to our intuitions about how to deal with people who threaten others with force.

dogs4thewin said:

so does that mean that God wants us to just let people harm the innocent?

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Elsewhere Jesus tells us to love our enemies. It is fascinating to see how people justify bombing and killing the enemy in war even though these same people will claim to affirm the teaching about loving enemies. Look, I agree it seems crazy to not use force against an enemy.

But Jesus's teaching is quite clear.

W2L said:

This has all been explained to you. We're going in circles.

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Agreed. In this thread, I provided a detailed argument explaining why the "buy a sword" teaching has nothing to with self-defense.