VOWisdom

[Chris†opher Paul]

In talking with VOW, I had a lightning bolt hit me. I was struggling with some Dogma about Mary, and I realized something...

1. Mary is to be honored because she is the channel for which God came into the world.

2. Ok, but God is all-powerful, so He doesn't really need her to be a channel to us, then or now. He could have poofed into existence as the grown up Jesus if He wanted to do that.

3. But He didn't. He chose to go through Mary.

4. If God chose to go through Mary, He has a pretty good reason, so who are we to wonder about going through Mary to get to Jesus?

Wonderful in its simplicity.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Hi Souljah,

What do you mean by going to Mary to get to Jesus? Can you explain?

Is it like, going to a friend to eventually be brought to Jesus?

-Jason

 

[Bondservant]

Originally posted by s0uljah
In talking with VOW, I had a lightning bolt hit me. I was struggling with some Dogma about Mary, and I realized something...

1. Mary is to be honored because she is the channel for which God came into the world.

2. Ok, but God is all-powerful, so He doesn't really need her to be a channel to us, then or now. He could have poofed into existence as the grown up Jesus if He wanted to do that.

3. But He didn't. He chose to go through Mary.

4. If God chose to go through Mary, He has a pretty good reason, so who are we to wonder about going through Mary to get to Jesus?

Wonderful in its simplicity.

Be very careful with this type of logic!!

We need no mediation in our relationship with Christ.  Mary was the ark of the new covenant, but the covenant did not stay in the ark.  God, in the second person of the Trinity, became man.  Mary was the vessal for that act.  Mary's role ends when Jesus left the home for public ministry.  Mary was not on the Cross for our sins - it was Jesus Christ that died for us - it was not Mary.

It is a worthy practice to honor and remember Mary for her role in the incarnation.  It is also a worthy practice to ask for her prayers, but we do not "have" to go through her.

In fact we must have a relationship with the Son.  Jesus never said - go to my mom to get to me to have eternal life.  He says that he is the bread of life.  Jesus says in Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - he did not say go see my mom first!!

If we do not have a relationship with the Jesus we will not enter the kingdom of heaven - it is that simple.

Mary is a wonderful example of holiness - but she can not come between us and Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Hi Bondservant,

Thanks for sharing. Somehow I got the notion that Souljah was saying that we go to Mary to go to Jesus. It sounded a bit freaky to me

Personally, as a non-Catholic, I have no problem with the doctrines about Mary. And I find good bibical reason for the immaculate conception as well as the other doctrines. But I think Catholics shouldn't emphasize so much on Mary, but rather more emphasis should be placed on Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Father. But that's just me.

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Bondservant]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Hi Bondservant,

Thanks for sharing. Somehow I got the notion that Souljah was saying that we go to Mary to go to Jesus. It sounded a bit freaky to me

Personally, as a non-Catholic, I have no problem with the doctrines about Mary. And I find good bibical reason for the immaculate conception as well as the other doctrines. But I think Catholics shouldn't emphasize so much on Mary, but rather more emphasis should be placed on Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Father. But that's just me.

God bless!

-Jason

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this one.  I used to be a member of the "Blue Army", as well as the "Marian Movement of Priests".  I finally realized that I did not need to go through Mother Mary to have a relationship with Jesus.  I still ask for the Blessed Mothers prayers - but I realize that I must have a personal relationship with Christ to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Hi-

I got this from the following Dogmas...at least, I think they are Dogma's...

"Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)

Since Mary's Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)"

http://www.catholicfirst.com/TheFaith/ChurchDocuments/Dogmas.htm

Are these wrong?

 

[VOW]

To Hoonbaba:

The "emphasis" on Mary, as you put it, is done because she is the perfect example for all Christians.

She is not elevated to deity, she is not the fourth in the Trinity, she doesn't answer prayers or forgive sins.

But she certainly was more than just a handy womb for the infant Jesus.



Peace,
~VOW

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by s0uljah
"Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)

Mary gave Jesus to the world? 

Since Mary's Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)"

God needs Mary's cooperation to confer His Grace?

Are these wrong?

Do they sound biblically based to you?

 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
The "emphasis" on Mary, as you put it, is done because she is the perfect example for all Christians.

I thought Christ was the perfect example for all Christians.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
The "emphasis" on Mary, as you put it, is done because she is the perfect example for all Christians.

If Mary was the perfect example are there scriptures telling us we should be like her?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[VOW]

To Ref:

Hmmm.

How about in Luke?

(ratz, somebody cleaned off the desk and moved my Bible!)

(okay, I found my grandmother's KJV)

Luke 1:48

...behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Peace,
~VOW

 

[VOW]

To Ref:

God needs Mary's cooperation to confer His Grace?

Remember, Ref, we don't subscribe to Predestination. If you pull your thoughts out of the Predestination reasoning, you will see that:
#1--Mary's cooperation was necessary to the Incarnation, and
#2--her cooperation is indeed an example to all of us, that we should also give in completely to God's will.

From the Predestination viewpoint, Mary's role in the Incarnation would indeed be very minor.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
How about in Luke?

Luke 1:48
...behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


Peace,
~VOW

Okay.  But is there scriptural support that we should emulate her as our example?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Okay.  But is there scriptural support that we should emulate her as our example?

Thanks,

God bless

Is there scriptural support that we shouldn't?

She stood their, in perfect faith and obidience while her son, her baby, was brutally tortured, and murdered.

What would you do if it were your baby son?

Luke 1:38 - "let it be done to me according to thy word" = Mary's fiat. Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of veneration.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
Remember, Ref, we don't subscribe to Predestination.

This has nothing to do with predestination.

If you pull your thoughts out of the Predestination reasoning, you will see that:
#1--Mary's cooperation was necessary to the Incarnation, and

Okay.  I'll concede that her "cooperation" was necessary for her to be the vessel for the Incarnation, but not necessary for it to happen.  Even you guys acknowledge that the only reason that Mary was an acceptable vessel was because God restrained her from sinning.

#2--her cooperation is indeed an example to all of us, that we should also give in completely to God's will.

I agree.  I have never said anything contrary to this.  Mary was a wonderful woman.  While I don't give her the credit for the implementation of God's Will that you guys do, I do credit her with having a desire to be obedient. 

From the Predestination viewpoint, Mary's role in the Incarnation would indeed be very minor.

That's not what I said, nor is that what s0uljah said.  Not every comment I make referrences predestination.  What s0uljah said was, "Since Mary's Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)"  What I'm wondering is, does this mean that whenever God desires to "confer His grace" must He have Mary's "actual intercessory co-operation?"  I'm not wondering "if she would cooperate."  I wondering if you believe God, or man, needs it.

God bless

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

I'll concede that her "cooperation" was necessary for her to be the vessel for the Incarnation, but not necessary for it to happen.

See my original post. God didnt have to ask her, He didn't need her, as you said. But He did use her. Shouldn't that tell you something?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by s0uljah
See my original post. God didnt have to ask her, He didn't need her, as you said. But He did use her. Shouldn't that tell you something?

Sure.  It tells me that she was a woman whom God had shown great favor and grace to.  I am not saying she wasn't a woman who set a good example.  She was.  What I am offering is that, like us, her example for us, is judged according to the standard, that being Jesus.

God bless

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Sure.  It tells me that she was a woman whom God had shown great favor and grace to.  I am not saying she wasn't a woman who set a good example.  She was.  What I am offering is that, like us, her example for us, is judged according to the standard, that being Jesus.

God bless

Jesus is the standard, yes. But God went through Mary, and He has a good reason for doing it.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Is there scriptural support that we shouldn't?

Oh.  I see.  So if there's not scriptural support against something that means we should do it?

She stood their, in perfect faith and obidience while her son, her baby, was brutally tortured, and murdered.

Okay. 

What would you do if it were your baby son?

I don't imagine I would come close to that kind of faithful behavior.

Luke 1:38 - "let it be done to me according to thy word" = Mary's fiat. Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of veneration.

Well, I admire her definitely.  I never said I didn't.  Just because non-Catholics don't venerate her in the same way as Catholics doesn't mean we don't respect her.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Jesus is the standard, yes. But God went through Mary, and He has a good reason for doing it.

What do you believe that reason to be?