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Vitcims & Attitudes, Might & Right

Verv

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I have thought recently about what it means to be a victim... To me, it seems like being a victim in many ways is a choice that we make. People survive very horrific things and can have very different reactions.

I think being a victim is a choice we all make. You start seeing it more clearly in a military environment when someone gets selected for last minute, unlucky duties that steal weekends and force folks to pack their bags and go away for two or three weeks to live like a Spartan.

Generally, the younger people act as if they are victims and that it is an affront to them. I used to be the sort to curse as much but there has to be a point at which a person really stops and re-asses it and recognizes that there are some things which cannot be changed. But this is hardly victimization. It is only the shallowest of levels.

I went to school with several immigrants from war zones. Some were quickly evacuated and incurred no troubles yet there were a few who saw it very first hand -- one was actually a child soldier in Sudan, another lost two of her siblings to Hussein's Al-Anfal campaign in the late 80s. I remember being impressed by the attitudes they had towards the entire situation.

They acted as if it was cold, hard fact; just history. It could not be changed or altered and the notion of carrying it with you everywhere and being sad because of it really didn't click with them. There was a certain detachment I didn't understand.

I've also met people who have been raped before and have handled it almost in very forgiving terms. No vindictive streak at all.

In fact, it seems like the majority of people who seem upset and rattled by something feel it towards quite small problems. To me, it makes them petty.

If you have the right attitude there is no such thing as victimization. There are just facts -- just crimes that were done against you that in no way make you weaker or lesser or needing help, but rather give you a new experience.

I guess it is at this point that we have to take sober, cold looks at our lives and even the lives of others and perhaps gather around us the notion that all we have is the moments we are passing now, and in this sense it is our duty to make the best of everything (a duty to ourselves). We cannot dwell on things but must simply shrug them off and grow towards any amount of light peaking through the darkness that is in our life.

Life is about overcoming things -- life is about not being a victim.

Please, if someone ever does something horrible to you do your best to not carry it with you and to shrug it off. That is where nobility in character lies. That is how dignity is instilled in a person and they become their best. That is self-actualization.

Martyrs crave the pain and rigors of life and seek them out... Maybe we should, too, and remember to smile through our darkest hour and to go above and beyond the pain.

A victim is simply a person with a bad attitude.

After a few weeks of darkness people should be slapped across the face and told to Soldier up or give up. We do not have to be scared animals.

It is immorality to yourself to dwell on your past and lord it over people's heads in such a fashion. It becomes morbid and repugnant to view things from that lens -- yet it becomes glorious, dignified and moving to view it from the lens of trial by fire and fighting to move on and to only look back with a wise eye, hoping simply to glean from experience.

The Soldier who drops his weapon in battle never to return is a coward.

The victim who drops his composure for good and never recovers is a coward.

When we face our difficult situations we have the opportunity to prove ourselves as mighty and noble spirits -- we should thank God for the opportunity to prove to ourselves and to others the depths of our souls and the strength of our will.

People do not need pity but only need the empathy and camaraderie of others. There are certain morsels of truth and beauty we can find in all situations.

A person never looks so dignified as when they suffer with nobility -- that is why we cheer for the underdog. It is in their impending defeat and continued fight that we wish to see ourselves -- no one ever hopes to defeat the world from a golden throne with all of fate and fact on their side, but rather we wish to be weak for a moment so we can measure how strong we become; we wish to once be slaves so that we know what it is to be free.

Perhaps this is where the archaic notion of might makes right comes from:

Because these men have suffered the horrors of war and have left their homes to come so far, to rule and to conquer, to know more than their farm village and to know more than a life behind a plow, they have a certain dignity and right they have earned through their suffering and have learned a certain truth. They have gained a dignity and a nobility in the fact that they actively chose never to be on the opposite end of the sword in a time when war and bloodshed was as common as birth and the world suffered a poverty of ideology.

What separated the Viking from the peasant he stole from was a choice -- a choice to make life more than a few acres of farmland and submission to a Lord. Though the Viking has become a tremendous anti-hero he is an anti-hero of the caliber of any noble bandit -- he is a man who when given a poor lot in life decided to go to war for more.

That is the attitude that I guess we need to have -- when we are put under the thumb of another or victimized by circumstance we must pull ourselves up from our boot straps, find our martial bearing and lower our heads.

As long as we are pushing forward we can only die where we stand and never be backed into a hole of abject defeat and misery.

The difference between victims and martyrs is attitude -- the victim dies a victims death and lives a victims life characterized by fear and weakness, and though the martyr may be weak his acceptance of his lot crowns his death with the people's immortal admiration.
 

KarateCowboy

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Just some points to ponder:
The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]

Victim \Vic"tim\, n. [L. victima: cf. F. victime.]
1. A living being sacrificed to some deity, or in the
performance of a religious rite; a creature immolated, or
made an offering of.
[1913 Webster]

Led like a victim, to my death I'll go. --Dryden.
[1913 Webster]

2. A person or thing destroyed or sacrificed in the pursuit
of an object, or in gratification of a passion; as, a
victim to jealousy, lust, or ambition.
[1913 Webster]

3. A person or living creature destroyed by, or suffering
grievous injury from, another, from fortune or from
accident; as, the victim of a defaulter; the victim of a
railroad accident.
[1913 Webster]

4. Hence, one who is duped, or cheated; a dupe; a gull.
[Colloq.]
[1913 Webster]

WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]

victim
n 1: an unfortunate person who suffers from some adverse
circumstance
2: a person who is tricked or swindled [syn: dupe]

Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 [moby-thes]

85 Moby Thesaurus words for "victim":
also-ran, babe, beasts of venery, big game, boob, booby, butt,
byword, byword of reproach, casualty, chump, cinch,
credulous person, cull, defeatee, derision, duck, dupe, easy mark,
easy pickings, fair game, fall guy, figure of fun, fish, fool,
game, game loser, gazingstock, goat, gobe-mouches, good loser,
good sport, greener, greenhorn, greeny, gudgeon, gull,
hard-luck guy, hardcase, innocent, jest, jestingstock, joke, kill,
laughingstock, leadpipe cinch, loser, mark, martyr, mockery,
monkey, object of compassion, offering, patsy, pigeon, plaything,
poor devil, poor unfortunate, prey, prize sap, pushover, quarry,
sacrifice, sad sack, sap, saphead, scapegoat, schlemiel,
schlimazel, sitting duck, sport, stock, stooge, sucker, sufferer,
sure loser, target, the hunted, the vanquished, toy, trusting soul,
underdog, unfortunate, venery, wretch
 
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Verv

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I don´t see much good coming from self-victimization.
If asked to explain this stance I guess my explanation would be significantly more down-to-earth than that of the OP, though.

Oh man I knew even when you agreed with me you would have to find some way to portray me in this fashion.

How was I so not down to Earth?

What do I need to do to please you in my writings? Preface everything with my own humility and unworthiness?

You know it is OK sometimes to agree with me and not make an attack upon me.
 
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quatona

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Oh man I knew even when you agreed with me you would have to find some way to portray me in this fashion.
I didn´t portray you at all.
I meant to say that - in case I have discerned it correctly - I agree with the bottom line "self-victimization is not a good idea", and I don´t get much out of all the concepts and constructs you utilize for describing and inflating this simple idea.

How was I so not down to Earth?
I said my explanation would be more down-to-earth than you. I spoke about the your explanation, not about you. And first of all I made a statement about my view.
As for your OP: I think there is a lot of unnecessary and unconvincing baggage coming along with the message. Just my opinion.
I didn´t know what was more important to you: the basic assertion, or the way you arrived there, or the additional ideas you connected to it.
I could have discussed the entire long essay in detail - which would have resulted in mostly negative statements, criticism and objections. Instead I said that I basically agree, although a lot of the additional stuff is not my kind of thing - which emphasises the positive side.
Not sure why you take offense from this.

What do I need to do to please you in my writings?
Colour me surprised. I don´t expect you to please me, and I wasn´t aware that the purpose of your writings is to please me.

Preface everything with my own humility and unworthiness?
I don´t seem to understand why your person seems to play such a huge part here. Your personal traits or your worthiness or descriptions of them are of no interest to me. I´m simply addressing your posts.

You know it is OK sometimes to agree with me and not make an attack upon me.
You almost make it sound like you feel like a victim. ;)
Relax. There was no attack upon you.
 
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JohnLocke

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I'm not sure what you're point is.

All human beings are flawed, there are stresses the likes of which will break any human being. Do you deny these truths? And if not, then what do you do with those humans who have suffered that beyond which no human can endure?

A martyr is not merely a person who dies with a good attitude, least in my experience. I go to a comedy club and am literally rolling on the floor laughing when 17,000 pounds of explosives parked in the truck outside blows up and scatters my body to atoms. Am I a martyr? And if so, of what? Stand-up comedy?

Whatever your intent, it seems that you are quite literally "blaming the victim" which seems ignoble at best. It seems that you expect those who have suffered to rather quickly if not instaneously, shut up and soldier on. That just doesn't sound realistic in most cases. There are people like Michael Jordan so naturally gifted that feats that are still impossible for me were easy for him. I dare say that coming to an acceptance of the personal tragedy of rape, or watching your parents murdered before you or any of the numerous things you mentioned is more difficult than shooting 85% from the line. But somehow, I suspect that your criticism will not fall so hard on those who fail to raise their shooting percentage to that lofty height in a matter of weeks.

There is some wisdom in what you have said, there does come a point when victimization ends because one comes to an acceptance of the circumstances, finds personal power, etc. but in my experience and observation these are innate reflexes of human beings, but are learned and developed attitudes and behaviors.

As my buddy Stone-man used to say, "Save yourself a lot of trouble, think twice, speak once, if at all."

Peace
 
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Verv

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I didn´t portray you at all.
I meant to say that - in case I have discerned it correctly - I agree with the bottom line "self-victimization is not a good idea", and I don´t get much out of all the concepts and constructs you utilize for describing and inflating this simple idea.


I said my explanation would be more down-to-earth than you. I spoke about the your explanation, not about you. And first of all I made a statement about my view.
As for your OP: I think there is a lot of unnecessary and unconvincing baggage coming along with the message. Just my opinion.
I didn´t know what was more important to you: the basic assertion, or the way you arrived there, or the additional ideas you connected to it.
I could have discussed the entire long essay in detail - which would have resulted in mostly negative statements, criticism and objections. Instead I said that I basically agree, although a lot of the additional stuff is not my kind of thing - which emphasises the positive side.
Not sure why you take offense from this.

OK, we just have a lot of negative exchanges and the briefness of your statement did not explain what you just did so I was thinking you agreed more than you did.

I'm not sure what you're point is.

All human beings are flawed, there are stresses the likes of which will break any human being. Do you deny these truths? And if not, then what do you do with those humans who have suffered that beyond which no human can endure?

I think most suffering most people can endure -- people even survived such terrible things as the Holocaust and North Korean labor camps. Some people are destroyed by simple things and that is an indicator of a certain weakness -- that was my point.

A martyr is not merely a person who dies with a good attitude, least in my experience. I go to a comedy club and am literally rolling on the floor laughing when 17,000 pounds of explosives parked in the truck outside blows up and scatters my body to atoms. Am I a martyr? And if so, of what? Stand-up comedy?

Well, martyrdom is not laughing while dying in a literal sense but rather it is the ability to knowingly accept a death that is coming and sort of go to the Cross on your own.

Whatever your intent, it seems that you are quite literally "blaming the victim" which seems ignoble at best. It seems that you expect those who have suffered to rather quickly if not instaneously, shut up and soldier on. That just doesn't sound realistic in most cases. There are people like Michael Jordan so naturally gifted that feats that are still impossible for me were easy for him. I dare say that coming to an acceptance of the personal tragedy of rape, or watching your parents murdered before you or any of the numerous things you mentioned is more difficult than shooting 85% from the line. But somehow, I suspect that your criticism will not fall so hard on those who fail to raise their shooting percentage to that lofty height in a matter of weeks.

I think it is more realistic in other cultures and societies where people just go forward and do whatever is necessary. Our culture seems to believe in medicating the people who have mental problems and not simply casting them sideways stares and trying to motivate them with a few simple words, explaining that the world is not so bad.

I hate the society which prescribes medication for the most minor of attitude problems

As my buddy Stone-man used to say, "Save yourself a lot of trouble, think twice, speak once, if at all."

Peace

Haha, well, I feel like through dialog comes wisdom and if you think my words should have been thought over twice... I do not know what to say. I feel like they were good as they were.
 
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SallyNow

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This sounds like a good excuse to kick people while they are down, to pour salt in their wound, and then taunt them for crying.

You give the example of people who have suffered great pain previously and come through it stronger, and people in the midst of pain. Guess what? Chances are very great that those who are now strong had their share of tears, their share of screaming, of worrying. But they came through it, and now are able to not so much forget as to forgive.

Another problem is that sometimes, when one is on the brink of many problems happening at once, but those problems never really come to a head, a person can become worried about the small things. It isn't a sign of weakness, just a sign that they are having a run of bad luck.



Then, to top it off, there are people with actual psychological disorders. They proper treatment and support, not speeches on how they are weak and should be stronger.

jmverville said:
I think it is more realistic in other cultures and societies where people just go forward and do whatever is necessary. Our culture seems to believe in medicating the people who have mental problems and not simply casting them sideways stares and trying to motivate them with a few simple words, explaining that the world is not so bad.

I hate the society which prescribes medication for the most minor of attitude problems

People with psychological disorders don't get motivated by stares. They end up in poverty, or worse.

Yes, there are some doctors who overmedicate. But there are also people who need medication who can't, or won't, get it. The attitude that a psychological disorder can be cured by stares doesn't help anything.

Can you cure diabetes with a few simple words that insulin isn't so bad? No, of course not. It's just silly to even say that. Well, many psychological disorders are the same. Either type requires monitoring by a professional and proper medical care. They require treatment by educated professionals with direct knowledge in the field.

Now, you may say that Type 2 diabetes is "caused" by lifestyle... but that is only sometimes the case. And it does not mean that those people do not deserve proper medical treatment and support.

There are people who like the attention they get by constantly having small problems. But those are not the majority of those suffering.

Personally, I'd rather be around a dozen people in the midst of suffering then one person who blames victims while they are down.

In the midst of the crisis, even the small ones, the goal should be to stablize... not to blame.
 
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quatona

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I think most suffering most people can endure -- people even survived such terrible things as the Holocaust and North Korean labor camps. Some people are destroyed by simple things and that is an indicator of a certain weakness -- that was my point.

Yes, that is the observation that matches mine: Some people can endure things easily that others are broken by.
I´d also agree in that it is desirable to belong to the first group.

What, however, I find a bit obscure is the conclusion that because person A can endure pain X person B can, too. Quite apparently (and as our common observation shows) this is not the case.

Now, it can be assumed that the ability to endure pain is - at least to a certain degree - learnable, trainable.
When speaking of "down-to-earth" I was thinking of usable, practical advice how to do that - as opposed to long elaborations that - if dismantled of the spiritual/metaphysical baggage - actually come down to mere "should" appeals.

Hope that helps clarifying my problems with the OP.
 
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Aeris

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Although I agree that people should try to overcome the bad things that happen in their life, I do not agree that a victim is a person with a bad attitude, a victim is a person who has had something terrible done to them, that they have lasting effects from it does not make them weak. However there are people who try to portray themselves as victims, like the people you mentioned early on in your post who get picked for last minute, unlucky duties, they are not victims it is just their job, if they dont like it they shouldnt have joined the army. However being raped or any of the other situations like that invovle no choice, those people are actual victims, and yes it is good if they are able to overcome it and become a stronger person because of it, but it isnt easy and it doesnt make the person weak if they have a hard time and have lasting effects even years later.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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While what you say may be true is it so in all cases? To me, it seems to urge people suffering bereavement, grief and depression to just 'get on with it'. If so, this is precisely the attitude that gives a lot of people guilt about their feelings. It's the same as saying 'cheer up' to someone with clinical depression...it won't help them, it will just add to their guilt for their feelings.

Frankly, it looks like your warrior attitude belongs in another century, if not another millennium. The 'stiff upper lip' has proved to only bring suppression and make us worse off. Your method of putting up with everything has already brought centuries of repression, self-hatred and mental illness. I think its time has come and gone.
 
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