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So a sin that does expel the HS (and faith?), like a mortal sin to whatever extent that is, can these be forgiven?
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I believe this last portion of the blog gets to the point of their position.
"Therefore it is not what the sin is, but whether the sin results in the expulsion of the Holy Spirit and ones faith, that makes it a mortal sin or not."
Pretty much the expulsion of the HS and ones faith would cause that person to loose their salvation.
Absolutely they can be. As they can be in the RC too. If one repents and turns from the sinning ways they are forgiven by Christ.So a sin that does expel the HS (and faith?), like a mortal sin to whatever extent that is, can these be forgiven?
Do you believe missing Mass (it's called mass for Lutherans too right?) is a mortal sin too?Absolutely they can be. As they can be in the RC too. If one repents and turns from the sinning ways they are forgiven by Christ.
No, I do not believe that is taught in the Lutheran Church. Many call it Mass, some the Divine Liturgy, some just church service.Do you believe missing Mass (it's called mass for Lutherans too right?) is a mortal sin too?
That's not inherently a sin. Of course, we go to mass/the divine liturgy in order to be forgiven, so it could be sinful if one is intentionally avoiding going, but if your car breaks down on Sunday morning we wouldn't say you sinned by missing. Alternatively, if you skip mass so that you can avoid a confrontation with the pastor because you know you committed a grievous sin and don't want to repent, well, that would be sinful (but really the root problem would be the previous sin and refusal to repent, not the skipping of mass)Do you believe missing Mass (it's called mass for Lutherans too right?) is a mortal sin too?
Here is a pretty good idea of what Lutheran believe about Mary:The mother of our church? - Living LutheranI'm back.... What is the view of Mary and the Saints? And Lent? How do you do Lent (like I think Catholics can't have red meat on Fridays) and how is it viewed?
AndAlong with the broad tradition of Christianity, Lutherans do address Mary by the title: mother of God. That is actually a technical title (“Theotokos” in Greek) affirmed by the ecumenical council of Ephesus in 431. Martin Luther himself spoke of Mary with great reverence and respect, and Lutherans ought to continue to do so.
As Lutherans, we respect Mary and we look to her example of faithfulness. But we bring our intercessions to Christ, our great high priest before the throne of God.
Christ “alone has promised to hear our prayers. According to Scripture, in all our needs and concerns it is the highest worship to seek and call upon this same Jesus Christ with our whole heart.” (Augsburg Confession 21)
I'm back.... What is the view of Mary and the Saints? And Lent? How do you do Lent (like I think Catholics can't have red meat on Fridays) and how is it viewed?
4] Our Confession approves honors to the saints. For here a threefold honor is to be approved. The first is thanksgiving. For we ought to give thanks to God because He has shown examples of mercy; because He has shown that He wishes to save men; because He has given teachers or other gifts to the Church. And these gifts, as they are the greatest, should be amplified, and the saints themselves should be praised, who have faithfully used these gifts, just as Christ praises faithful business-men, 5] Matt. 25:21, 23. The second service is the strengthening of our faith; when we see the denial forgiven Peter, we also are encouraged to believe the more that grace 6] truly superabounds over sin, Rom. 5:20. The third honor is the imitation, first, of faith, then of the other virtues, which every one should imitate according to his calling. 7] These true honors the adversaries do not require. They dispute only concerning invocation, which, even though it would have no danger, nevertheless is not necessary.
33] Moreover, they teach that every Christian ought to train and subdue himself with bodily restraints, or bodily exercises and labors that neither satiety nor slothfulness tempt him to sin, but not that we may merit grace or make satisfaction for sins by such exercises. 34] And such external discipline ought to be urged at all times, not only on a few and set days. So Christ commands, 35] Luke 21:34: Take heed lest your hearts 36] be overcharged with surfeiting; also Matt. 17:21: This kind goeth not out but 37] by prayer and fasting. Paul also says, 1 Cor. 9:27: I keep under my body and bring it into subjection. 38] Here he clearly shows that he was keeping under his body, not to merit forgiveness of sins by that discipline, but to have his body in subjection and fitted for spiritual things, and for the discharge of duty according 39] to his calling. Therefore, we do not condemn fasting in itself, but the traditions which prescribe certain days and certain meats, with peril of conscience, as though such works were a necessary service.
40] Nevertheless, very many traditions are kept on our part, which conduce to good order in the Church, as the Order of Lessons 41] in the Mass and the chief holy-days. But, at the same time, men are warned that such observances do not justify before God, and that in such things it should not be made sin if they be omitted without offense. 42] Such liberty in human rites was not unknown to the Fathers. 43] For in the East they kept Easter at another time than at Rome, and when, on account of this diversity, the Romans accused the Eastern Church of schism, they were admonished by others 44] that such usages need not be alike everywhere. And Irenaeus says: Diversity concerning fasting does not destroy the harmony of faith; as also Pope Gregory intimates in Dist. XII, that such diversity does not violate the unity of the Church. 45] And in the Tripartite History, Book 9, many examples of dissimilar rites are gathered, and the following statement is made: It was not the mind of the Apostles to enact rules concerning holy-days, but to preach godliness and a holy life [to teach faith and love].
Mary is the Theotokos (mother of God), she was a virgin when she conceived, gave birth, and remained a virgin after Christ's birth. She is "blessed amongst women" to all generations and should be greatly honored for she is the ark that carried Immanuel by God's grace. That said, Lutherans don't worship her, nor pray to her.
Similar with the other saints. We don't pray to them, but we do honor them. From the Augsburg Confession:
Another bit on fasting, just to elaborate on tampasteve, we don't require specific fasting practices during lent, but we do encourage it. People can choose what sort of fasts they want to do though, usually chosen with their pastor's advice. So some people will end up following the Roman practice, others won't, but we don't view anyone as better or worse than another.
From the Augsburg Confession:
It's a little more complicated. Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and many (most?) Lutherans still do, at least by Creed if not in faith. The belief in her virginity is an ancient one among the church, but there are reasonable arguments that can be made that she had other children. However the LCMS - Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not follow this belief and finds that there is a possibility that Mary and Joseph had other children.I don't mean to debate but as an honest question, how do people say Mary remained a virgin? It seems like in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56 the other people say Jesus has (half-)brothers and sisters. I do not say this to attack you, I really do not understand this.
I don't mean to debate but as an honest question, how do people say Mary remained a virgin? It seems like in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56 the other people say Jesus has (half-)brothers and sisters. I do not say this to attack you, I really do not understand this.
It's a little more complicated. Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and many (most?) Lutherans still do, at least by Creed if not in faith. The belief in her virginity is an ancient one among the church, but there are reasonable arguments that can be made that she had other children. However the LCMS - Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not follow this belief and finds that there is a possibility that Mary and Joseph had other children.
I'm an sure we could deliver further into it....but the discussion gets pretty deep fast - so might be better as it's own thread.
In short, not all Lutherans hold to this belief, and the second largest synod in the USA (LCMS) does not. I believe the largest, ELCA, officially holds the belief, but as I said...many parishioners do not. I do hold to it myself as I find the evidence against it circumstantial and speculative at best and the Tradition has held this belief for centuries.
Thanks for the clarification, I'm ELCA myself.To clarify: the LCMS (my synod) does not officially teach that she did or did not have further children, but acknowledges the possibility.
There are arguments on both sides; it does get technical and complicated, so I would support starting another thread specifically on the topic. In short though, the greek in those verses could easily refer to Jesus' cousins or step-brothers (Joseph's children from a previous marriage). Many Lutherans will disagree on this, but I am with tampasteve -- tradition has believed this without questioning as early as the 4th century for certain (Ambrose clearly confessed this), probably before then.
I'm cautiously back. Lightly at first. Just to see if the site and myself have evolved so as to make my participation mutually good.
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