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mighty2save

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They believe one is saved by grace through faith only. But Mennonites hold the Anabaptist belief that one can turn from their Salvation. This belief comes from the following:
[bible]"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If They shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame"[/bible]
This verse comes from Hebrews 6:4-6. Richard Mummau (an Anabaptist/Mennonite) wrote a discourse on a website but I do not have enough posts to put a link so here it is below. The below will really explain the main thought to you which is basically Christians are much quiker to write people off then God and we are much more secure then we possibly think. But one can deny the Lord and turn from their faith.

 
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NOTurTypical

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It's sad Christians use this verse to claim that Christians can be "lost". The context this book of the Bible was written in was to Jews, while the temple was still standing in Jerusalem. Because of intense persecution from the Jewish authorities many Jews who had accepted Christ as their savior were strongly tempted to "switch" back to Judaism and ritual sacrifice to keep themselves from persecution. Paul was exhorting them to remain faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ in the face of intense persecution.

One verse in Hebrews taken out of the context which it was written in cannot nullify other verses stating the eternal security of a believer. Remember folks, salvation is a work of the Lord, it's not based upon our faithfulness but HIS.
 
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2thePoint

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The Greek in that passage is interesting because the word "IF" does not appear. It is a long sentence with many participles (tasting, being illuminated, falling away), and when such words appear with the aorist tense it usually indicates a "second class condition" (ref. here), except that the IF is missing. If it is indeed a 2nd class cond., it "assumes the premise as false for the sake of argument". Then the passage would mean that this is all hypothetical: if it were possible to lose salvation, it would be impossible to regain it. Notice also that the next passage begins with "But", such that what the writer of Hebrews is discussing has nothing to do with the reality of our salvation.
 
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2thePoint

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An interesting discussion at b-Greek :
 
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a pilgrim

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Wow. That all sounds so complicated. I thought is was an Epistle to the Hebrews. Sometime, try reading the epistle as if it is not owned by the Arminians or the Calvinists, but instead, as it is called, is an epistle to Hebrews who have either just came to faith, or are not yet there. It cast new light on who the object of the pronouns are. For example:

Heb.1
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb.2
[1] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

Heb.3
[16] For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
[18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[19] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb.4
[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
If we care going to be faithful with the word of God, we need to interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews in context. It was to the Hebrews. They, collectively, as a nation of people to whom the Gospel was given first, (then to the Gentiles,) can no longer look to the old system. If they fail to embrace the New Covenant, just as their fathers failed to enter into the Land, by faith, there is no other option.
They, the Hebrews, were being warned that they, the Hebrews, would fall away. If we look at them for the most part, they have. With the exception of believing Jews, Judaism has led the Jews to destruction. To be scattered to the four winds until the time of the end.

Ben
 
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NOTurTypical

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"Wow. That all sounds so complicated."



That's because Greek is ridiculously complicated and precise. Verbs have to meet 5 different conditions to just be used. It sounds "complicated" to you because English is one of the laziest languages invented by mankind.
 
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2thePoint

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Whether we like it or not, the Bible is an ancient text in a dialect not spoken today. It requires the expertise of linguists, archaeologists, etc. just to make the dictionary of koine Greek words and inform us of the period's figures of speech, historical setting, etc. And often there is disagreement among such scholars, some of which can affect our understanding of a passage.

By wrestling with these difficulties we at least can make an informed judgment and try our best to understand what's being taught in the pages of scripture. Many cults and schisms have arisen from reliance solely upon one translation or another, one commentary or another, one popular theologian or another. We value their educated opinions but at the end of the day we are responsible for what we believe.

Salvation, the topic at hand, is of vital importance, so we need to make sure we aren't getting that wrong, and the only way to know that is by making sure we have a good grasp of the passage pertaining to that topic. Only after we've done our homework can we say with assurance that we understand. Yes, salvation and the Christian life are actually very simple. But as long as there are false teachers or simply misguided ones, we have to remain vigilant.

I'm not saying we have to be theologians to know and spread the gospel, but that anyone spreading a teaching better be qualified, and the rest of us better be Bereans.

I think there is great blessing in scouring the pages of scripture. But I try not to lose site of the "forest", and have written some articles on just how simply our faith can be expressed:

How to Follow Jesus
Three Laws Saved
 
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a pilgrim

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I realize we are getting WAY off topic from the OP, but I disagree in that, there are very few Greek/Hebrew/Chaldee scholars, but there are A WHOLE LOT of carpenters, mechanics, housewives, teenagers, garbage collectors, etc., who would NEVER understand God's will and way for their life if they had to know ALL that stuff.

No, instead, God circumnavigates all the textual problems by keeping his word pure, preserved, and inspired for modern man. Scholars complicate, humble followers of Christ simply obey.
 
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2thePoint

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No, instead, God circumnavigates all the textual problems by keeping his word pure, preserved, and inspired for modern man. Scholars complicate, humble followers of Christ simply obey.
Is this a KJVO plug?

Anyway, why stop there? Lots of people can't even read, so should we just throw the Bible out and "obey" someone we stake our spiritual lives on? What does it mean to be a Berean?
 
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NOTurTypical

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There isn't "very few", there are literally tens of thousands alive today. And exponentially more centuries ago. And I realize there are millions of folks not trained in the ancient languages, that's why easy salvation verses are also in the Word of God.

Check out Romans 10:9.
 
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childofdust

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Remember folks, salvation is a work of the Lord, it's not based upon our faithfulness but HIS.

This brings things back nicely to the Anabaptist perspective...

The Anabapatists emerged out of a society that believed that. In one moment, the people around the Anabaptists said "it's not based upon our faithfulness" and in the other moment, they went out whoring, murdering, lying, cheating, abusing, and working wickedness. The Anabaptists wanted no part of that. Workers of iniquity have no part in the kingdom of YHWH. What company do light and dark have with each other? It is only those who run the race who may make it in the end. It is only those who keep their light burning who will take part in the wedding feast.
 
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Jeffersonian

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sooo.... i think nobody really answer the question : how do anabaptists perceive salvation? can you choose God? or God choose you? can you lose your salvation? or you are always saved? can man resist God grace? Did Jesus die for the whole world or only for the so called ''elect''?
 
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childofdust

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It is right what you say... No systematic answer is fast coming from most Anabaptists when it comes to the Protestant focus on "salvation". Probably because it was never all that important to us (we're not Protestant). Here's my answer:

A non-Anabaptist went up to the farmer and said "what is your belief about that tree over there giving forth fruit"? "Well," said the farmer, "God gave me a seed, I planted it, I tended it as faithfully as I might, God sent rain upon it, and it bore fruit. If I chop the tree down, it won't bear fruit, will it?"

There's another answer on the web site "The Theology of Anabaptism by Robert Friedmann Part Three" (google it). Here is an excerpt:

 
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a pilgrim

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Because Anabaptism was a "movement," and not a denomination, one cannot give the "tells-all" answer for them. However, having said that, for the most part, anabaptist would tend to be of the Arminian persuassion. I spoke to a well-known pastor, of one of the contemporary anabaptist "movements," and he told me it was like this, being saved is the act of placing saving faith in the finished work of Christ. It is an act of the will. If one fails to continue, as it were, in the faith, daily believing upon the sacrifice of Christ for their sins, they could walk away from their faith. One of their favorite verses is as follows:

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Cor. 9:27

There logic is that the English word, castaway, is the Greek word, adokimos, which is translated "reprobate" in 6 other passages. So, they conclude that this verse, and one's like it prove that one can, by an act of their will, cast themselves away from the faith.
 
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