Vestigial tails, again

[PKJ]

Hi,

I know vestigial organs have been discussed many times, but I have a few questions about tails.

First, the "evidence for macro-evolution" paper mentions a case of vestigial tail that has bones, not only muscles and nerves. But I think there is no source for that. I'd love to get my hand on the original paper (I can access most journals through the school's web proxy).

Second, is there a known genetic code for the tail? What I mean by that is a gene or gene sequence that is known to make a tail appear. Do we have genetic evidence that the tail is truly a vestigial tail, and not simply a malformation, like having a 6th toe.

Third, do you have any extra information or sources (besides the usual talkorigins) about vestigial organs, and tails in particular?

Thank you.

 

[LittleNipper]

My grandmother was injured being hit by a car at age 50. She had her tail-bone removed. She suffered for the rest of her life. I bet she could have told you the purpose of what you want to call a "vestigial tail," but then, would you be willing to listen...

 

[Split Rock]

My grandmother was injured being hit by a car at age 50. She had her tail-bone removed. She suffered for the rest of her life. I bet she could have told you the purpose of what you want to call a "vestigial tail," but then, would you be willing to listen...

Do you need to be told the definition of "vestigial" again?

Can you explain why we and other apes all have a series of little bones that are homologous to the mammalian tail and develop the same way from the same cells?

Can you explain why we start growing a true tail as an embryo and then absorb it?

Go ahead, L.N... I'll listen..

 

[Split Rock]

My grandmother was injured being hit by a car at age 50. She had her tail-bone removed. She suffered for the rest of her life. I bet she could have told you the purpose of what you want to call a "vestigial tail," but then, would you be willing to listen...

Hi,

I know vestigial organs have been discussed many times, but I have a few questions about tails.

First, the "evidence for macro-evolution" paper mentions a case of vestigial tail that has bones, not only muscles and nerves. But I think there is no source for that. I'd love to get my hand on the original paper (I can access most journals through the school's web proxy).

Second, is there a known genetic code for the tail? What I mean by that is a gene or gene sequence that is known to make a tail appear. Do we have genetic evidence that the tail is truly a vestigial tail, and not simply a malformation, like having a 6th toe.

Third, do you have any extra information or sources (besides the usual talkorigins) about vestigial organs, and tails in particular?

Thank you.

Here is some info:

http://www.nurseminerva.co.uk/tailbud.htm

 

[plindboe]

Third, do you have any extra information or sources (besides the usual talkorigins) about vestigial organs...

In my first semester about plant anatomy we examined and learned about several plants with flowers that had reduced their stamens entirely, or had partly reduced non-functioning/sterile stamens (also known as a staminodes). It's actually quite a common phenonemon. Sometimes I wonder why people only talk about animals in these kinds of debates, when the evidence seems just as abundant in the plant kingdom.

Peter

 

[Split Rock]

In my first semester about plant anatomy we examined and learned about several plants with flowers that had reduced their stamens entirely, or had partly reduced non-functioning/sterile stamens (also known as a staminodes). It's actually quite a common phenonemon. Sometimes I wonder why people only talk about animals in these kinds of debates, when the evidence seems just as abundant in the plant kingdom.

Peter

Probably because many Creationists do not consider plants to be "alive." for example, it was OK to eat plants (but not animals) in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. I guess this is because they do not have the "breathe of life."

 

[philadiddle]

Can you explain why we and other apes all have a series of little bones that are homologous to the mammalian tail and develop the same way from the same cells?

Can you explain why we start growing a true tail as an embryo and then absorb it?

'goddidit'

or

God reused the code, like many car designers reuse the wheel, and dashboards, and steering wheels etc, God reused the genetic codes in different "kinds" of animals because it works with our carbon based form of life.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

The section from 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution has a bunch of linked references on both examples of human tails w/ bones 'n stuff, as well as genetics.

 

[PKJ]

Thanks for the info.

This article was very informative:
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/51/9/2811

If I understood it right, it says that the Wnt-3a gene controls the expression (or inhibition) of a tail.

Mothers with diabetes seem to give birth more frequently to child with a defect on that gene, which results in malformations, including the apparition of a vestigial tail.

The scientists wanted to be sure that Wnt-3a really has something to do with tails. They provoked its mutation in baby mice by inducing severe diabetes in the mother. The mice were born with "caudal regression syndrome". The most severe mutations caused "complete caudal regression, i.e., total loss of tail. "

Conclusion: the gene is indeed responsible for the development of the tail. Mutations in mice can cause a loss of tail, while in human they can make a tail develop.


Sooo..... did I get it right?