Veneration of Saints

[opheiletes]

Hello all,
I initially wanted to ask this question on the Orthodox forum, but it turns out that I can`t post there. In any case here it goes.

From my personal reading of the Bible, the veneration of saints seems like a questionable practice. I was shocked when I first saw Christians kissing the icons of certain saints whose very existance is questionable (such as St. George, we have no historical information on him at all, for all that matters, he might not have been a martyr nor existed, it`s just a later tradition); also alot of the "patron" saints simply replaced Hellenic and Latin pagan deities of various crafts and functions.

This is all even more troubling when you consider some of the more dubious "saints" that are venerated by the Orthodox Church, such as "Saint" Tsar Nicholai II of Russia. When I visited a Russian Orthodox church in New York, I was apalled to see his icon there. So I ended up getting into a nasty argument with the priest as to how a man who had personally ordered the killing of thousands of innocent civilians in St. Petersburg and elsewhere could be a saint just because he was himself executed? His answers did not satisfy me at all.

Just wanted to get some opinion from you all on this issue.

Best,
T

 

[Rafael]

The protestant branch of Christianity does not practice veneration of the saints, and I think this is mainly an Orthodox and Catholic practice.

The interdenominational forum seems to be the place to hash out and debate doctrine of the different branches of believers. The Catholic Church has some very good apologists that can explain why they have statues and images.

All Christians recognize the cross as a sign of Christ's sacrifice of life for the sins of mankind. So then, would wearing a cross around ones neck be idol worship? No, it is a sign of belief in the power of faith in the redemptive power of Jesus.

Veneration of the Saints is one topic I will pass on to someone better able to explain.

 

[Philip]

From my personal reading of the Bible, the veneration of saints seems like a questionable practice.

While it seems that you have already made up your mind, I will address your questions.

I was shocked when I first saw Christians kissing the icons of certain saints whose very existance is questionable (such as St. George, we have no historical information on him at all, for all that matters, he might not have been a martyr nor existed, it`s just a later tradition);

We have as much historical evidence that St George existed as we do for most of the Old Testament Saints.

also alot of the "patron" saints simply replaced Hellenic and Latin pagan deities of various crafts and functions.

This is not an Orthodox practice.

This is all even more troubling when you consider some of the more dubious "saints" that are venerated by the Orthodox Church, such as "Saint" Tsar Nicholai II of Russia. When I visited a Russian Orthodox church in New York, I was apalled to see his icon there.

Why would it upset you? St Nicholai was a Christian man who died a martyr. Why should he not be honored?

So I ended up getting into a nasty argument with the priest as to how a man who had personally ordered the killing of thousands of innocent civilians in St. Petersburg and elsewhere could be a saint just because he was himself executed?

"Saint" does not mean "perfect". All men sin. Christians, including Nicholai, are forgiven.

 

[opheiletes]

While it seems that you have already made up your mind, I will address your questions.



We have as much historical evidence that St George existed as we do for most of the Old Testament Saints.



This is not an Orthodox practice.



Why would it upset you? St Nicholai was a Christian man who died a martyr. Why should he not be honored?



"Saint" does not mean "perfect". All men sin. Christians, including Nicholai, are forgiven.

Hi Philip,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. As for the question you have asked ("Why should he not be honored?") Well, yes, he can be honored as the last Christian monarch of Russia, but a saint of the Church?

I just fail to grasp how a man who personally ordered the soldiers in St. Petersburg to open fire on protesters, amongst whom were thousands of women and children, can be venerated as a saint. Hope you understand my line of logic here...

Best,
TA

 

[Philip]

Well, yes, he can be honored as the last Christian monarch of Russia, but a saint of the Church?

Do you know what the term "Saint of the Church" means?

I just fail to grasp how a man who personally ordered the soldiers in St. Petersburg to open fire on protesters, amongst whom were thousands of women and children, can be venerated as a saint. Hope you understand my line of logic here...

Are you suggesting the these sins could not be forgiven? Would you say that they are worse that St Peter's denial of Christ or St Paul's persecution of Christians?

 

[opheiletes]

Philip,

I do see your point now. However, take the example of a Catholic priest who was martyred in a concentration camp for his faith by the Nazis--wouldn`t he be qualified as a "Saint" just as much as Tsar Nicholai II, if not more? What I`m trying to suggest, I think, is that the issue of saints seems to have been "nationalized" or at least "regionalized" from the early modern period on. That`s what I find troubling about it. No offense intended

 

[ps139]

Philip,

I do see your point now. However, take the example of a Catholic priest who was martyred in a concentration camp for his faith by the Nazis--wouldn`t he be qualified as a "Saint" just as much as Tsar Nicholai II, if not more?

I cannot answer for the "more or less of a saint" part...but yes, a Catholic priest who was martyred in a concentration camp by the Nazis....a man dying for his faith in Christ..he is a saint.

The Catholic Church canonizes men and women as saints if the Church is assured that this person is now in Heaven. There are many, many, non-canonized saints, in fact, there are more saints we don't know about than saints we do. Saints in the Catholic Church are ones we KNOW are in Heaven. Everyone in Heaven is a saint.

 

[opheiletes]

There are many, many, non-canonized saints, in fact, there are more saints we don't know about than saints we do. Saints in the Catholic Church are ones we KNOW are in Heaven. Everyone in Heaven is a saint.

Alright, that certainly makes much sense, thank you kindly.

You can`t imagine how hard it is for someone who`s not born to a Christian tradition to learn more about it due to the existence of dozens of denominations which exist, their different take on various issues and the historical baggage each tend to carry.

 

[ps139]

You are right, I cannot. I was born into a Catholic family, and one of my uncles is a priest, so if I ever do not get something, I can just give him a call and he will talk with me. I feel very blessed that I have such a knowledgeable and immediate recourse. There are many Christian denominations, various beliefs, and yes, a lot of historical baggage. I have only recently begun learning the differences which divide Protestant denominations. But there is still a lot more to know. I have studied Taoism and Buddhism to a small degree, I know a good deal about Judaism (one of the great benefits of a Catholic education) but I know very little except the basics of Islam and virtually nothing of various pagan religions. There is a lot to know, and I see that you are "seeking," there are many doors to knock on. The Catholic forum here is a very welcoming place, full of educated and devout Catholics who will be happy to answer any question you may have, even "stupid" questions. In my opinion there are no stupid questions when it comes to theology. May God bless you in your search!