Venerate frustation with Catholics

[RMDY]

But, I am very disturbed at some things I read today, and I would like some answers. Please, I do not wish to offend anyone here, but I am disturbed over this macrointerest for Mary, claims that some Catholics bow down to her and other claims that other Catholics kiss the feet of a pope. I am also disturbed by many others things I have heard, such as Catholic claims that I am a heretic because I do not belong to the Catholic church, and confession is only limited to a priest, and that Mary is considered equal to God because they not just consider her to be the blessed mother of Jesus in the flesh, but of God in general. Now, to make records straight, I know Jesus is God, but when refering to her as God's mother, it sounds not right, since none of us refer to her as the mother of the Holy Spirit, or mother of God the Father. Rather, wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to her as the mother of God's Son?

Am I wrong to feel this frustration?

Please...my friends.....in Christ.....I would like you to express yourselves to me......so that I may not be disturbed....


Don't kid me wrong. I know many Catholics and always talk about Christ and Scripture with them and we all get along fine and most of the time I don't hear any of these claims from them personally!

God bless,

Rob =)

 

[Assisi]

I see that you've posted a number of threads here on OBOB today. Welcome to OBOB.

I would recommend reading different sites to the ones you've posted if you want to find out what Catholics really believe and teach. There are a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings out there when it comes to what we believe. If we did place Mary higher or as high as God, then outrage would be justified, but we do not.

For correct Catholic teaching read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Alternatively here are some good sites
Catholic Answers
EWTN
Here is a sticky in OBOB which covers frequently asked questions.

I'm sure that God is sad to see that the division between Christians prolonged by the lies which are told about our beliefs on a number of websites.


Mary: Seriously, I hear much more about Mary from nonCatholics than I do from Catholics. I don't think the focus on Mary is a big as people perceive it to be. But no, we do not think that Mary is equal to God. God is God, and Mary is a human. The issue about calling Mary the Mother of God is one which seems to be brought up a lot, but really this title is more about Christ than it is about Mary. But calling Mary the Mother of God, we are affirming that Christ is fully human and fully divine. He isn't a split personality or two separate people. He isn't less God than the Father or the Holy Spirit. He is fully divine. Always. Catholics do not see the title of Mary, Mother of God as placing her above God, nor does it imply that Mary was there before God or somehow created God. Of course, that would be heresy and idolatry. But Christ cannot be divided, when He was born He was no less God than He was when He ascended. This title is all about Christ - and Who Christ is. If we, for example, called Mary the mother of God's Son...what does that imply about Jesus? And what does it imply about God? Doesn't it imply that Mary somehow slept with God? And that Jesus is a demi God???
These are the things we deny when we call her the Mother of God.

 

[wiggbuggie]

Mary: Seriously, I hear much more about Mary from nonCatholics than I do from Catholics.

lol props

 

[Globalnomad]

Wow, Assisi, that was an unusually good explanation of the Mother of God concept! JC14, I hope it makes sense to you, because as a long-in-the-tooth cradle Catholic, I like it very much.

Welcome, JC14! Keep the questions coming - as long as they are honestly meant, we'll be glad to explain. But you MAY want to look at the references you have been give - your three questions so far (I've read the other two threads) are fairly standard questions that people always ask of Catholics, and there are standard explanations available.

 

[WarriorAngel]

But, I am very disturbed at some things I read today, and I would like some answers. Please, I do not wish to offend anyone here, but I am disturbed over this macrointerest for Mary, claims that some Catholics bow down to her and other claims that other Catholics kiss the feet of a pope. I am also disturbed by many others things I have heard, such as Catholic claims that I am a heretic because I do not belong to the Catholic church, and confession is only limited to a priest, and that Mary is considered equal to God because they not just consider her to be the blessed mother of Jesus in the flesh, but of God in general. Now, to make records straight, I know Jesus is God, but when refering to her as God's mother, it sounds not right, since none of us refer to her as the mother of the Holy Spirit, or mother of God the Father. Rather, wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to her as the mother of God's Son?

Am I wrong to feel this frustration?

Please...my friends.....in Christ.....I would like you to express yourselves to me......so that I may not be disturbed....


Don't kid me wrong. I know many Catholics and always talk about Christ and Scripture with them and we all get along fine and most of the time I don't hear any of these claims from them personally!

God bless,

Rob =)

Assisi gave you some wonderful sites to follow up with regarding your questions.

I just wanted to add that what you apparently read, and the way it was read is absolutely incorrect.

Peace.

 

[WarriorAngel]

*Except...
History will show you that those who did not follow the doctrines of the original Church were excommunicated for heresy.

God Bless.

 

[stivvy]

Again, we have people enter here and say "I heard this..." or " I heard that..." but none have the truth. The truth that the Holy Trinity is One and not seperate. You cannot be the "mother of God's son". That would be denial of the Trinity. Is that what you are doing?

Jesus the Christ is God incarnate, is He not? Thus His mother, who the angel gabriel stated as "Full of Grace" bore Him and raised Him. She was truely the Mother of God, the Theotokoas! "Generations shall call me blessed!" Amen?

At her death, all the Apostles gathered together and watched her taken up into Heaven.

We venerate her and other blessed leaders of the church out of respect and to show our humility as humans that have much spiritual work ahead of us to be like them and their particular relationship with God Himself.

 

[RMDY]

I know a lot of you love Mary and I am not saying you can't! But when Catholism starts to.....center things around Mary quite a bit, doesn't it concern any of you?
Where are the only-Jesus-rosary beeds
What about the 20 Hail Jesus's we need to do
I see many Catholics showing pictures of a baby Jesus in the arms of an adult Mary.....
I get the impression that many people seem to be more for a relationship with Mary more than a relationship with Jesus, although believing that Jesus is higher than Mary.....you know....the belief that that Mary will intercede for them?

 

[Maggie893]

I know a lot of you love Mary and I am not saying you can't! But when Catholism starts to.....center things around Mary quite a bit, doesn't it concern any of you?
Where are the only-Jesus-rosary beeds
What about the 20 Hail Jesus's we need to do
I see many Catholics showing pictures of a baby Jesus in the arms of an adult Mary.....
I get the impression that many people seem to be more for a relationship with Mary more than a relationship with Jesus, although believing that Jesus is higher than Mary.....you know....the belief that that Mary will intercede for them?

We are well aware of where Mary is in the line-up and quite sure she's not Divine. No need for you to be concerned.

I completely agree with Assissi that Protestants are more obsessed with their perception of a Catholic obsession than Catholics are obsessed.

Are you aware that the entire rosary revolves around meditating on the life of Jesus? That the entire thing is about Jesus?

 

[faerieevaH]

Ahh.. the rosary is an often misunderstood devotion! And it comesbecause the Hail Mary's are the part that you hear.

Have you ever tried to focus on your prayers but found your mind wandering? It comes because our brains are often so busy that we keep being unfocussed.
The rosary has two parts: one part is the part that everyone can hear, the hail Mary's, but they are so to speak only the pair of glasses that we wear to have our brains focus on the heart of the rosary, which is the passages of Christs life. His birth, his life, his suffering, his death and his ressurection, captured in 4 sets of 5 mysteries.
When you see a Catholic pray the rosary, he repeats the Hail Mary, but this is only what his mouth is doing, within his mind, he is thinking of those mysteries.

As to 'what about the Jesus centered devotions"?

There are those too. You will not be able to enter a church without seeing the "stations of the cross" somewhere depicted. This is a special devotion to the suffering of Jesus.
THen there is for example, the divine mercy chaplet (prayed on the same beads as the rosary)

The reason why Catholicism seems Mary centered is because the figure of Mary is less important in most protestant denominations. Therefore, each time she is mentioned or given praise, it atracts attention to someone who is not a Catholic. However, each time we mention Jesus, it isn't noticeable, because well... we are Christians, so what do you expect? It's like wearing shoes. You are probably not aware of your shoes every moment that you wear them. But if something changed in your normally comfy shoes, like a little stone, which is very small compared to the entirety of your shoe, it will atract all the attention.

 

[stivvy]

Those that don't understand the relationship we have with not only Mary but all the Saints are more focused on it than we are. By you focusing on it, causes you to see it too narrowly. We surround ourselve and put ourselves in the presence of not only Mary, but all the saints as one big happy family before the throne of God. We are all doing the same thing. Honoring and worshipping Him! We just so happen to turn to these huge figures in the history of the church and recognize they are to be thanked through the respect we give them and they honor our worship of God through prayers for us while in His great presence. We are one huge family!

 

[RMDY]

I'm sure that God is sad to see that the division between Christians prolonged by the lies which are told about our beliefs on a number of websites.

perhaps. That is why I came to ask some questions here to see if its true.

Mary: Seriously, I hear much more about Mary from nonCatholics than I do from Catholics.

In person, I haven't gotten into a discussion about Catholicism except with my mother, who isn't exactly a devoted Catholic. Before I was a christian, she'd tell me to pray to saints, and I almost did. But when I began to read the bible and go to church, I didn't understand this and found no reason to believe this. And then I go on the internet to research about this and come across some very...very...venerating websites that almost put Mary on a level equal to God. That is why I came directly into this forum asking some questions, but I appologize if I offended anyone here.

I don't think the focus on Mary is a big as people perceive it to be. But no, we do not think that Mary is equal to God. God is God, and Mary is a human. The issue about calling Mary the Mother of God is one which seems to be brought up a lot,

I'm not exactly concerned about whether you call her mother of God or not, because I understand the way your thinking. But to any christian or anyone else who does not understand this then it does not sound right.
I actually haven't been thinking much over this title but am rather disturbed more if someone bows down to a statue of Mary and prayers to her sort-of-thing than a catholic who has a strong admiration for her. reverence. I am not saying this is what Catholics do. I don't know one Catholic in real life who do this, but what I am disturbed about is if the pope and other priests are promoting something of the likes (bowing to statues of Mary and praying in from of the statues believing Mary will intercede for them).

but really this title is more about Christ than it is about Mary. But calling Mary the Mother of God, we are affirming that Christ is fully human and fully divine. He isn't a split personality or two separate people. He isn't less God than the Father or the Holy Spirit. He is fully divine. Always. Catholics do not see the title of Mary, Mother of God as placing her above God, nor does it imply that Mary was there before God or somehow created God. Of course, that would be heresy and idolatry. But Christ cannot be divided, when He was born He was no less God than He was when He ascended. This title is all about Christ - and Who Christ is. If we, for example, called Mary the mother of God's Son...what does that imply about Jesus? And what does it imply about God? Doesn't it imply that Mary somehow slept with God? And that Jesus is a demi God???
These are the things we deny when we call her the Mother of God.

Either way, to people who do not understand what you are explaining, it would come across in this way:

Marry somehow slept with God

or that Mary is somehow equal or above God.
That is why it offends some people. But I understand what you are trying to say. I am not exactly disturbed by that.


But you know, there are some people who take things too far....venerate things too far....misinterpret Scripture too far....

such things have existed in the church even shortly after the days of Pentecost (notable Ephesians, Galatians, Corinthians)

One church had a problem with mixing Jewish Torah with God's gift of grace, another had a problem with Angel worship, and so forth.
Another had a problem with bei

 

[faerieevaH]

Here is some further information:

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm

I really think you might particularly like the Divine Mercy Chaplet. These Catholic Devotions unfortunately atract less attention than the ones that seem to put Mary or the Saints first because they are less controversial in nature.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross

 

[Assisi]

I know a lot of you love Mary and I am not saying you can't! But when Catholism starts to.....center things around Mary quite a bit, doesn't it concern any of you?

I have never seen this in the Catholic Church.

Where are the only-Jesus-rosary beeds

The rosary is all about Jesus and Scripture. We quote a Scripture for each bead, and we meditate on Scriptures. In today's rosary (for example) we meditate on 5 things 1. Christ's baptism in the Jordan 2. Christ's first miracle at the wedding at Cana 3. Christ proclaiming the Kingdom 4. The Transfiguration of Christ 5. The Lord's Supper.
The rosary is...about Jesus. Why does Mary come into it? It's a meditation on the Scriptures. We, like Mary, try to 'ponder these things in our hearts' (Luke 2:19).

What about the 20 Hail Jesus's we need to do

Not sure what you're referring to here??? You are saying we shouldn't say 20 hail Mary's? Why would we say 20 hail Mary's?? Today, my prayer (as a Catholic) has consisted of praising the Lord for His creation today, offering all my day to the Lord, thanking God for the gifts He has given me today, and finally - asking for help in the things I need to do today. 20 hail Marys?? Where are you getting this stuff??

I see many Catholics showing pictures of a baby Jesus in the arms of an adult Mary.....

Sure. Isn't it amazing to think that Christ humbled Himself to share in our humanity!?!

I get the impression that many people seem to be more for a relationship with Mary more than a relationship with Jesus, although believing that Jesus is higher than Mary.....you know....the belief that that Mary will intercede for them?

Your impression is wrong. And that should be a relief for you. Isn't it nice to know that the 1.1billion people you thought we're worshiping something other than God are actually focusing their lives on Christ and the Gospel?? I do not know any Catholic who places any relationship higher than their relationship with God.

 

[RMDY]

But why is the Rosary even necessary? Why did it even have to be introduced in the first place?

Thus His mother, who the angel gabriel stated as "Full of Grace" bore Him and raised Him.

I want to look this up in Scripure. Could you be kind enough to provide me with a book,chapter, and verse where Gabriel says this?

 

[RMDY]

Luke1:28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

This doesn't say Mary is full of grace but:

1) highly favoured
2) The Lord is with her
3) Blessed among women

 

[Assisi]

Before I was a christian, she'd tell me to pray to saints, and I almost did. But when I began to read the bible and go to church, I didn't understand this and found no reason to believe this. And then I go on the internet to research about this and come across some very...very...venerating websites that almost put Mary on a level equal to God. That is why I came directly into this forum asking some questions, but I appologize if I offended anyone here.

No offense taken But we want to point out what Catholics actually believe to you.

As for praying to the saints. We are not praying to them in the protestant definition of praying. We are praying with them. We believe that Christ has conquered death, so the saints who have died in Christ can pray to God because they are alive in God - in heaven.

I am rather disturbed more if someone bows down to a statue of Mary and prayers to her sort-of-thing than a catholic who has a strong admiration for her. reverence. I am not saying this is what Catholics do. I don't know one Catholic in real life who do this, but what I am disturbed about is if the pope and other priests are promoting something of the likes (bowing to statues of Mary and praying in from of the statues believing Mary will intercede for them).

We believe that Mary can pray for Christians on earth, just as any person in heaven can pray for any person on earth, and any person on earthy can pray for any person on earth.

We see ourselves as a big family. Statues, like photos, remind us of others we love. It is okay to love other humans (including those in heaven). It's not okay to love their photos or statues, and it's not okay to give them the worship which is due to God. But it is okay to love them.


I agree with you that yes, people have been misinterpreting things and creating false doctrines from the first, and we as Christians have been warned against following such teachings. It is important to know that what you believe is true, and that you aren't following a lie. The early Church held many councils to make sure that heresy did not creep into the Church. I would recommend reading them, they are very interesting. Here is one.

 

[King of the Nations]

But why is the Rosary even necessary? Why did it even have to be introduced in the first place?



I want to look this up in Scripure. Could you be kind enough to provide me with a book,chapter, and verse where Gabriel says this?

The rosary isn't "necessary". It is an extra gift, much like the sacrament of confession to a priest is not strictly necessary in the sense that it's not as if God would not be able to figure out how to forgive our sins if we didn't have it. He provides us the sacrament of confession as an accountability measure and a way to infuse greater amounts of grace than would be received by "just asking". So the rosary is a special gift as well.

Greg

 

[Assisi]

But why is the Rosary even necessary? Why did it even have to be introduced in the first place?

The rosary isn't neccessary. It is optional. I often pray it with my husband because we find it helps us to grow closer to God.
Here is a history of the rosary.

I want to look this up in Scripure. Could you be kind enough to provide me with a book,chapter, and verse where Gabriel says this?This doesn't say Mary is full of grace but:

1) highly favoured
2) The Lord is with her
3) Blessed among women

It depends on whether you use a Bible which has translated from the Greek or the Hebrew when it was translated from original languages. In the Greek it is 'plaras karitos' - direct translation is 'full of grace'. In Greek grammar this phrase not only means currently full of grace, but it is a perfect participle. It means always has been and always will be full of grace.

Catholics translate their Bibles from the Greek Septuagint.

 

[King of the Nations]

I'm not exactly concerned about whether you call her mother of God or not, because I understand the way your thinking. But to any christian or anyone else who does not understand this then it does not sound right.

It may not sound right to others but...such is life, basically. It is not China's responsibility, for example, to make sure that all of its language and customs are understandable and "agreeable" to everyone else. If anyone wants to take the time to understand Chinese people, then it's that person's responsibility to do the research, etc.

Know what I mean?

I actually haven't been thinking much over this title but am rather disturbed more if someone bows down to a statue of Mary and prayers to her sort-of-thing than a catholic who has a strong admiration for her. reverence. I am not saying this is what Catholics do. I don't know one Catholic in real life who do this, but what I am disturbed about is if the pope and other priests are promoting something of the likes (bowing to statues of Mary and praying in from of the statues believing Mary will intercede for them).

Have you ever kissed a picture of a loved one? Saluted a flag?

Why? Those are just material things. But they represent/symoblize the one they depict, right? Thus, saluting a the U.S. flag doesn't mean pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth but instead to the country "for which it stands". Likewise, kissing a picture of a loved one doesn't mean you're confusing it with the real thing and need a psych ward, nor does it mean that you think the picture itself has any "power" of any sort, only that what you are doing to the picture, you mean to convey to that which it represents.

What good Father could be angered by his children honoring an image of their mother? Also, does not the Bible tells us to "submit to one another" out of reverence for Christ? Who most appropriate to "submit to" after Christ than she who bore Him to us?