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veiling and the book of enoch

SummaScriptura

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<snip>You also raised the interesting point of Jews thinking angels could sin, to which I compound the observation that they say satan isn't a fallen angel and there is no such thing. There is forgiveness and redemption for Angels now?<snip>
According to the prevailing ideas about angels among Christians of various stripes, angels are viewed as spirits, without materiality. Western ideas about the differences between human carnality and angelic spirituality make the idea of angelic-human copulation seem impossible. In the Jewish writings from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism no such problem can be detected. There is a consensus among Jewish writers from that period that angelic spirituality as well as angelic carnality were both simultaneously real, and not mutually exclusive. The writer of the Book of Jubilees, (another book from that period) even speaks of angels having been created in a circumcised state from the beginning.

Copyright © 2006-2012, R.I. Burns All rights reserved including print and electronic versions.

About Satan, prior to the time of Christ, Jews believed in many "satans", or adversaries. These satans were viewed as an organized unified group of spiritual evil, both angels and unclean spirits. As time passed there was a growing concensus that their leader, Beliar or Belial, could be referred to as the lead satan, or Satan. If a Jew denies fallen angels explain spiritual evil they do so by only accepting the Hebrew Scriptures as authoritative. The Hebrew Scriptures do not contain a well-worked-out Satanology partly because it had adequately been done in their other books which would later be dropped from usae after 70 AD.

www.TheBookofEnoch.info
 
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Booko

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LOL I just got the most disturbing image of an angel using the Internet to um watch porn.

Yeah, disturbing. I mean, good luck to the Angels if they're on the Internetz they could find a lot of temptation there.
 
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razeontherock

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Yes. Georgia is in the Middle East of the Deep South, and we say y'all. (And do you know the plural of y'all?)

Yins for $1,000, Alex

Which raises the fine point of grammar that y'all can be singular. Not many are edumacated enough to no thayat.

We could probably start a whole thread just to compare notes on what angels might or might not be, according to religions that refer to them.

Surely! From what you quoted, it appears Baha'i uses the word to describe something distinct from what Christianity does. Whether we use it to refer to the same thing Jews do or not, i will defer.
 
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merryheart

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a clip from "The Badge of Guilt and Shame" by Katharine Bushnell in support of this

 
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Booko

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its "all y'all" ain't it

Yup, sure is!

My niece came to visit from Michigan some years ago, and we took her on a trip north of ATL into the Appalachians where the accent gets a bit more hill country and therefore what a Yankee thinks all "Southern accents" are. We stopped to eat at a Waffle House, and when she got back in the car she made some disrespectful comments about the waitress' thick accent.

I pointed out that *she* was the one with the "funny accent" here, and asked her why she would ever refer to a bunch of her girlfriends as you *guys*.

Oh...this thread was about Enoch...sheesh we have gone off track again.
 
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SanFrank

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SanFrank

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Some claim this as the reason for the Lord choosing a people, Israel, for keeping a pure line till the Messiah's arrival and for re-establishing monotheism.

You could view Israel's force coming out of Egypt, as strong enough to battle and wipe out the new alien breeds living in Canaan; so the amorites, Og, amalekites, rephilim
 
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razeontherock

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Oh...this thread was about Enoch...sheesh we have gone off track again.

Enoch had an accent and said alyawl ... ungodly types need convincin' of all the ungodly stuff y'all have ungodly committed. Prolly with a few more ungodlies thrown in just fer good measure
 
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smaneck

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That could not possibly be the reason why because the Hebrew Scriptures were written long before the Apocrypha ones you are referring to. These were mostly written in Greek during the Hellenistic period. What your analysis fails to consider is that Judaism at the time had fallen under the influence of Zoroastrian ideas regarding God vs. the Devil, Heaven and Hell, the Resurrection and the Judgement Day.
 
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merryheart

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Protection from sandstorms, protection from lusty angel's peering eyes, or what?

so that was my original question if the notion that women need to be protected originates with "lusty angels"

afterall - Canaan was said to still have these after the flood (Jubilees?)

My experience with Arabs is that when they speak of the need to protect their women, their argument goes beyond logic and enters a deeply held belief that has come down as a tradition. None has been particularly enthused with my notion that this is the origin... but... for me, to think so, makes the motivation somewhat easier to deal with than the notion that women need to wear it to control the lust of men.
 
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smaneck

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Surely! From what you quoted, it appears Baha'i uses the word to describe something distinct from what Christianity does. Whether we use it to refer to the same thing Jews do or not, i will defer.

Perhaps not as distinct as you might imagine. Note Clement of Alexandria's comment on that passage from Corinthians:

"By the angels he means righteous and virtuous men. Let her be veiled then, that she may not lead them to stumble into fornication." (Fragments: Oecumenius from Bk. III on 1 Cor. 11:10)
 
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SanFrank

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razeontherock

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Susan, this is logic fail. Messianic Jews toss that "hellenized" word around as if it were an answer to everything, but Jesus Himself taught what you are denouncing, and quoted Enoch repeatedly. He did not show up returning Jews to some master race status, but instead we have the story of the woman at the well!

All too often people fail to grasp just how significant that one event really was. How many smashed taboos can you count? I think an honest look reveals Judgment Day to be the oldest Prophecy, with hints at the Resurrection laced throughout all time.
 
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razeontherock

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but... for me, to think so, makes the motivation somewhat easier to deal with than the notion that women need to wear it to control the lust of men.

I was thinking I could come up with something really creepy to say that would help you keep this on the purely human level. I can't do it; there must be something to this "Salvation" stuff after all?
 
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