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Vegitarianism

woobadooba

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Alright, I'm a Non-denominational...but one of my best friends is a Seventh-day Adventists. He claims there's verses in the Bible that say that it's wrong to eat meat...yet he's never been able to provide them to me.

Enlighten me if you can :p

He can't find any because they don't exist. However, there are passages which inform us of things that we shouldn't eat.

You can find them in Leviticus 11.
 
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woobadooba

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But then didn't God come to peter and tell him to not consider any of the animals God created to be considered "unclean"?

Good question.

I am going to prepare an answer for you. But I don't have the time right now that is needed to do this. I will send you a PM when I post the answer.

I should have one for you no later than tomorrow.
 
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thecountrydoc

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Hi BrokenChains,

Your question is most valid. First let me say that there is no text that "requires" people of today to not eat meat of any kind. There are some meats that are not to be eaten, and I will give you text for those. But first, there are some important Biblical teachings and principals that need to be understood about our health that will help you undestand why many SDAs don't eat meat. Lets start with what the Apostle John had to say about what things he wanted belivers to have.
"Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in good health, even as thy soul prospereth." 3 John 2.
Note: The prayer includes three particulars: health of body, heanth of soul, and prosperity in secular affairs. We should have more of all three of these things if we devoutly pray fior them. I will give Biblical text to support each principal but will only quote the most important.

The Word of God is an mportant factor in the mainteance of health: See Prov. 4:20-22; Matt. 4:4.

Spiritual living includes proper care of the body:
"And the very God of peace scanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and BODY be reserved blamless nto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess. 5:2 (See on Romans 12:1)
Are physical habits of living important in God's sight?
"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." 1 Cor. 10:31
What are our bodies said to be?
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?. . . ." 1 Cor. 6:19, 20.
Note: When the Spirit of God dwells in one, his body is no longer his but is simply in his care. It is his duty to care or it as God's property, with it to gloriy God.

What does the Apostle say of those who defile the marvelous temple of God?
"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
On what basis did God promise to keep sickness from ancient Israel?
"And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and Iwill take sickness away from the midst of thee." Ex. 23:25
Besides giving laws of spiritual lie and health, what guidence concernng healthful living did God give to His ancient pople?


1.) Laws respecting diet: Lev. 11:46, 47; (also see vs. 2-47.) Deut. 14:3-20.

2.) Laws respecting labor and rest: Ex. 20:8-11.

3.)Laws of hygiene: Lev. 14:8.

4.) Laws respecting morality: Ex. 20:14

As long as Isreal followed God's counsels on health, how were they to be blessed? See Ps. 105:37.

Note: The laws of nature are God's laws. Trasgression of them by ignorance is regrettable.

Where does all true healing originate?
"I am the Lord that healeth thee." Ex. 15:16. Also see; Ps. 103:3; Ps. 41:3.
What food did God provide for man in the begining?
"And God said, behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is uopn the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which the fruit of a tree yeilding seed; to you it shall be for meat [food]." Gen. 1:29
After the flood, as a result of the earth's reduced prductivity, what emergency food was premitted?
"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat [food] for you; even as the green herb have I gven you all things." Gen. 9:3.
Note: God gave warnings and prohibitions concerning the use of flesh foods, making a distinction between the "unclean" and the "clean." Read Lev. 11:1-47.
It should be noted that the "unclean" things mentioned, are primairly scavengers. It might be said that scavengers are natures garbage cans. Just like any other garbage can, they tend to hold bacteria and disease, many of which can be passed on to humans if the flesh is eaten.

Was the Lord particular about Israel's diet? See Deut. 14:2, 3.

Some wholesome nonflesh foods mentioned in the Scriptures are:
Cerals--Deut. 8:8; 1 Sam 17:17.
Honey, butter, and cheese--Ex. 3:8; 2 Sam. 17:29.
Pulses, such as beans and peas--2 Sam. 17:28
Vegetables--Heb. 6:7.
Fruit--Deut. 8:8

In todays world we also need to think about various forms of polution and bacteria that affect even the "clean" meats including some of the most eaten, such as beef, chicken, and fish. If anyone doubts this, all they need to do is follow the news reports for a while. If futher proof is needed just read a few medcal journals.

I hope that these principals, along with the Biblical prohibitions on some foods, as well as medical facts, will help all who read this thread to understand why it is best not to eat any flesh foods.

Rspectfully, your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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PhantomTorment

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I understand why some wouldn't want to eat meat, and I can completely respect that choice. However given proper, healthy meat it does make our bodies healthier...unless you want to go snack on a handful of acorns a day to get more protein :p. But anyway thanks for the descriptive post :)
 
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NightEternal

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Hey BrokenChains.

I don't know what Bible your friend is reading from, but he is clearly misguided.

For the record, I have been an Adventist for over 20 years and have eaten meat all of my life. :thumbsup: My dad is an avid hunter and we lived off deer, antelope, moose and elk meat for most of my childhood. Buffalo is also very good, a nice lean meat. Here in Canada, wild meat is a staple in most areas.

I found it was very difficult to give up certain foods when I joined the SDA church. I loved BBQ pork spareribs, bacon and sausage. I was also a seafood fanatic. Shrimp and lobster were the most difficult to give up from that food-group. Deep fried shrimp with sweet and sour sauce at the Chinese restaurant buffet was one of my favourites. :yum:

I also tried calimari (squid) as well as escargot (snails) but it was a one time thing, as neither really appealed to me.

Although the escargot was alright fried in garlic butter...

There are definitely extremist people in the SDA church who have elevated diet to salvific level, no doubt. I have encountered many of them in my time and I have been condemned to hell by them for not giving up my chicken and beef :preach: :cry: Whatever.

They are not my conscience, they are not my God and I do not have to answer to them.

The basis for thier bold judgmentalism can be found in some strong statements EGW made regarding meat and translation to Heaven. I am on record as completely disagreeing with her on this point BTW.

I know many right-wing vegan Adventists who actually believe they are morally superior to meat-eaters and spiritually on a higher plane. Sounds more like pagan Hindu philosophy (Hindu's are devout vegans) than Christian belief to me.

Finally, I think we are treading on shaky ground when we claim the Levitical food laws on moral grounds rather than health reasons. We are then guilty, and rightly so, of the charges that mainline Evangelicals level against us, that we pick and choose from the ceremonial laws. The term 'unclean' is used in the Old Testament in a ceremonial sense, and we have to be careful as Adventists when we bandy about that term so freely. Unless we are still engaging in the ceremonial rituals of the Jews, there really is no reason for using it. It should always be specified that we mean 'unclean' in the sense that the animals are scavengers and are intrinsically filthy animals.

The official position of the SDA church is that clean meats are not prohibited, unclean foods are and vegetarianism is strongly encouraged but not required.

Any righteousness-by-diet fanatics in the church that deviate from these guidelines have no basis for thier claims.
 
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OntheDL

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But then didn't God come to peter and tell him to not consider any of the animals God created to be considered "unclean"?

Hi,

Thecountrydoc gave you some good answers.

About Peter's dream, let the bible explains itself.

Acts 10
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

This is often quoted to justify eating unclean meat. But the story goes on...

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

So the dream Peter had really was God telling him to preach the gospel the non-jews. The non-jews or gentiles were considered unclean by the jews.

Lastly, the bible says:

1 Cor 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

If one day the apples become harmful to our body because of pollution, genetic engineering, chemical...do we need to find if the bible forbids eating apples first?

The point NightEternal missed is this: the standard of regulation for meat industry is not adequate. The antibiotics, hormones, diseases making the meat increasingly unfit for consumption. And meat is an acidic food, an ideal environment for virus to grow. And cooking of the meat (high temperature) produces carcinogen which leads to cancer.

Science has proven vegeterianism generally leads to good health. Just look at the differential of the cancer rate of the far east countries whose main diet is grains and vegetables verses countries such as North America and Europe whose main diet is meat. It tells the whole story.

The people before the flood who were strictly vege diet lived to be a thousand years. After the flood, they began to eat meat, their life span was rapidly reduced.

Plus vegetarians are smarter and better looking. :) Just look at the story in Daniel 1. The 4 hebrew boys refused to see the meat of Babylon. After just 10 days, they looked better and are wiser than those ate the king's meat.
 
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thecountrydoc

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Hi once again Broken Chains,

I just realized that I have overlooked a very imporant question that you have ask.
"But then didn't God come to peter and tell him to not consider any of the animals God created to be considered "unclean"?"
I think the text that you are refering to was actualy spoken by the Apostle Paul. It is;
"For one beliveth that he may eat all things: another, which is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath recieved him." Rom. 14:2, 3.
Lets take a closed look at what this text is actually telling us based on the originl Greek. We will only consider the key points.


Verse 2. Beliveth. Or, "has faith" (see on ch. 3:3). Paul's point is that one man's faith allowes him to eat things that another man's faith does not premit.

Herbs. Gr. lachana, "vegetables." See on v. 1. Paul is not discussing the propriety of eating or abstaining from certain foods but rather urging patiece and forebearance in such matters. "The kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but rightousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (v. 17) Therefore, the man using strong faith will "follow the things which make for peace" (v. 19) and will beware lest by his eating or drinking or any other personal practice he destroy the work of God (v. 19) and those for whom Christ died (v.15).

Verse 3. Despise. Gr. exoutheneo, littlerally, "to throw out as nothing," hence, "to look down on," "to treat with contempt." Those of stronger faith would naturally be inclined to look with contempt upon the narrowness of those "week in the faith"(v. 1) as regards foods. This of course, would reveal that the faith of those supposedly strong was still deficient for pure faith works through love (Gal. 5:6).

Judge. Censoriousnes is often charecteritic of those whose religious experance is based largely upon the external fulfillment of external requirements. Both parties are in the wrong. Both are revealing spiritual pride instead of Christria love.

Recieved. Gr. proslambano, "to take to oneself." This is the word tanslated "recieve" in v. 1. The Christian is to "recieve" his brother as God has recieved him (see ch. 15:7).

Him. That is, the stronger brother who hae no scruples about eating "all things" (v. 2). Paul's point is that the abstaining beliver should not condemn, for his freedom the man whom God has accepted and recieved into His church in this freedom (see 1 Cor. 10:29; Gal. 5:13). If God has forgiven his sins and accpted him as His child, and his life in other aspects reveals the presence of the Holy Spirit, all such criticism is out of place.

I pray that the foregoing will be of help in understanding the referenced passage. If you have questions, please feel to ask.

Your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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NightEternal

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The point NightEternal missed is this: the standard of regulation for meat industry is not adequate.

I agree with this. After reading the book Fast Food Nation I almost had a heart attack at some of the things the author brought forward. :o I wish the standards were a LOT higher.

The antibiotics, hormones, diseases making the meat increasingly unfit for consumption.

True. It's always better to get free range animals that are grain-fed if possible.

And meat is an acidic food, an ideal environment for virus to grow. And cooking of the meat (high temperature) produces carcinogen which leads to cancer.

Agh. Pesticides on the fruit and vegetables will cause cancer as well. We all gotta die sometime. I'm not going to let food paranoia cripple me.

A carnivore just can't win, can he? You undercook your steak, you get flack for the blood. You overcook it you get flack for the carcinogen. :doh:

Science has proven vegeterianism generally leads to good health. Just look at the differential of the cancer rate of the far east countries whose main diet is grains and vegetables verses countries such as North America and Europe whose main diet is meat. It tells the whole story.

That's a pretty vast generalization. I know meat eaters who are robust and healthy. I also know vegans who would make concentration camp victims look healthy.

The people before the flood who were strictly vege diet lived to be a thousand years. After the flood, they began to eat meat, their life span was rapidly reduced.

And that had nothing to do with the sin condition or the increasingly violent society they lived in?

Even Jesus had a deteriorated body compared to Adam before the fall.

Plus vegetarians are smarter and better looking. :)

Okay, I really hope you weren't serious with this argument...

Just look at the story in Daniel 1. The 4 hebrew boys refused to see the meat of Babylon. After just 10 days, they looked better and are wiser than those ate the king's meat.

I am 5'9" and weigh 168 lbs. The results of my last physical found me to be in prime health.

I also have a college degree and plan to go for my Masters soon at Andrews.

So much for that.

As for good looking, my wife seems to think she has a pretty good catch. ;)
 
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thecountrydoc

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Let me speak from a purely clinical prespective.

First; As far as proteins are concerned, there are certain combinations of nuts, grains, and vegetables that produce almost perfect protein for the human digestive tract to assilmilate.

Second; It would be well for those would choose the vegetarian diet to learn how to cook correctly for great taste and balenced nutrition. I can't blame those who say "but it's so bland" or "I need somthing more filling." It has been my observation that if one knows how to prepare, blend, and serve the proper ingredents, the vegetarian diet is not only healthy, but also very enjoyable.

Third; Having participated in some reasearch concerning new diseases, I can safely say that there is a plethora of new ones showing up in wild game including a form of "mad cow disease" in some large North American game. And yes there are actualy documentable cases of humans contracting the same from the consumption of infected wild game. And don't forget the "bird flu." I hope that everyone is getting the picture here because I could go on and on.

There is an old country saying that says if you sleep with dogs you can expect to get fleas. Using that same logic, I choose not to eat any flesh foods or meat roducts.

What I have written here has absolutely nothing to do with being a SDA. It has only to do with fact and logic.

Respectfully, your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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djconklin

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Hi BrokenChains,

Your question is most valid. First let me say that there is no text that "requires" people of today to not eat meat of any kind. There are some meats that are not to be eaten, and I will give you text for those. But first, there are some important Biblical teachings and principals that need to be understood about our health that will help you undestand why many SDAs don't eat meat. Lets start with what the Apostle John had to say about what things he wanted belivers to have.
Note: The prayer includes three particulars: health of body, heanth of soul, and prosperity in secular affairs. We should have more of all three of these things if we devoutly pray fior them. I will give Biblical text to support each principal but will only quote the most important.

The Word of God is an mportant factor in the mainteance of health: See Prov. 4:20-22; Matt. 4:4.

Spiritual living includes proper care of the body:Are physical habits of living important in God's sight?What are our bodies said to be?Note: When the Spirit of God dwells in one, his body is no longer his but is simply in his care. It is his duty to care or it as God's property, with it to gloriy God.

What does the Apostle say of those who defile the marvelous temple of God?On what basis did God promise to keep sickness from ancient Israel? Besides giving laws of spiritual lie and health, what guidence concernng healthful living did God give to His ancient pople?

1.) Laws respecting diet: Lev. 11:46, 47; (also see vs. 2-47.) Deut. 14:3-20.

2.) Laws respecting labor and rest: Ex. 20:8-11.

3.)Laws of hygiene: Lev. 14:8.

4.) Laws respecting morality: Ex. 20:14

As long as Isreal followed God's counsels on health, how were they to be blessed? See Ps. 105:37.

Note: The laws of nature are God's laws. Trasgression of them by ignorance is regrettable.

Where does all true healing originate?What food did God provide for man in the begining? After the flood, as a result of the earth's reduced prductivity, what emergency food was premitted?Note: God gave warnings and prohibitions concerning the use of flesh foods, making a distinction between the "unclean" and the "clean." Read Lev. 11:1-47.
It should be noted that the "unclean" things mentioned, are primairly scavengers. It might be said that scavengers are natures garbage cans. Just like any other garbage can, they tend to hold bacteria and disease, many of which can be passed on to humans if the flesh is eaten.

Was the Lord particular about Israel's diet? See Deut. 14:2, 3.

Some wholesome nonflesh foods mentioned in the Scriptures are:
Cerals--Deut. 8:8; 1 Sam 17:17.
Honey, butter, and cheese--Ex. 3:8; 2 Sam. 17:29.
Pulses, such as beans and peas--2 Sam. 17:28
Vegetables--Heb. 6:7.
Fruit--Deut. 8:8

In todays world we also need to think about various forms of polution and bacteria that affect even the "clean" meats including some of the most eaten, such as beef, chicken, and fish. If anyone doubts this, all they need to do is follow the news reports for a while. If futher proof is needed just read a few medcal journals.

I hope that these principals, along with the Biblical prohibitions on some foods, as well as medical facts, will help all who read this thread to understand why it is best not to eat any flesh foods.

Rspectfully, your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc
That's a keeper! Thanks Doc!
 
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OntheDL

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I agree with this. After reading the book Fast Food Nation I almost had a heart attack at some of the things the author brought forward. :o I wish the standards were a LOT higher.
True. It's always better to get free range animals that are grain-fed if possible.
I saw a documentry on the meat industry. I suspect most people will quit eating meat if they saw what's in there before they ground up the 'beef' and saw how the chickens are raised and processed.

Agh. Pesticides on the fruit and vegetables will cause cancer as well. We all gotta die sometime. I'm not going to let food paranoia cripple me.

A carnivore just can't win, can he? You undercook your steak, you get flack for the blood. You overcook it you get flack for the carcinogen. :doh:
That's why there is organic food. Ellen White encouraged people to own land and grow their own produce.

I used to eat all kinds of meat before I became a christian. If one meal had no meat, I wouldn't have felt satisfied. No creatures on earth eat mainly for pleasure like the humans do. It's a temperance issue. Do I love eating meat and dairy product so much that even if I know they have long term health concerns but I can't give them up?
That's a pretty vast generalization. I know meat eaters who are robust and healthy. I also know vegans who would make concentration camp victims look healthy.
You can find an exception to rule in everything. Vegetarianism does not automatically mean good health. Balanced, non-restrictive vegetarianism plus active life style general produces good health.

Many of the athletes now are vegans. It helps them to be stronger and prolongs their careers.
And that had nothing to do with the sin condition or the increasingly violent society they lived in? Even Jesus had a deteriorated body compared to Adam before the fall.
It sure does. But before the flood people were wicked and violent that God had to destroy all of them. But after the flood, meat was introduced in diet. Then the life span drastically shortened. There is a strong connection.

Okay, I really hope you weren't serious with this argument...
The four hebrews did look fairer and grew wiser as the direct result of the pulse(vegetable) diet.
I am 5'9" and weigh 168 lbs. The results of my last physical found me to be in prime health.

I also have a college degree and plan to go for my Masters soon at Andrews.

So much for that.

As for good looking, my wife seems to think she has a pretty good catch. ;)
Our body can take alot of abuse. But eventually it catches up.
 
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Loveaboveall

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If anyone has the time they should read a book called (if I remember right) "The China Study". I have not had the time to read it but I have discussed with people who have and there is some startling discoveries they found in re: to animal protein diet versus vegetable protein diet. Appartently the animal protein was directly linked to producing a type of cancer they were studying and the vegetable protein diet, when switched from the animal protein diet, actually helped the body completely irradicate the cancer! If that is not enough proof to not eat animal products I don't know what is.

Doc, I wouldn't necessarily say that 2 Samuel 28-29 is purporting all the foods mentioned as "healthy". There doesn't seem to me to be anything to suggest that from the context of the verses. Rather it seems this was the "good stuff" from the region they were in. Not to disagree with what you said in regards to the foods just that I don't think you can use those verses to justify that the Bible is claiming these foods to be healthy.
 
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thecountrydoc

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Hi Loveaboveall,

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. It was not my intent to suggest that the Scripture gives definition for these foods, rather we, today, know that these foods are amoung the healthy group. I must admit however that dairy products are fast approaching the unhealthy group.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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woobadooba

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But then didn't God come to peter and tell him to not consider any of the animals God created to be considered "unclean"?

As to the vision that God gave to Peter in Acts 10:9-16, was it to inform him that it is now permissible to eat unclean meats as many now believe, or to inform him of something else?

The key to unlocking the answer to this question lies in knowing how to make the right connections.

Having said that, I would like to draw your attention to a few details…

  • Cornelius had a vision (Acts 10:3-4)
  • In the vision he was instructed to see Peter, which means the vision had something to do with Peter (Acts 10:5-6)
  • He sent three men to Peter who were Gentiles (Acts 10:7-8)
  • Gentiles were believed by the Jews to be unclean
  • Peter had a vision (Acts 10:9-16)
  • He saw this vision three times (Acts 10:16)
  • The vision disclosed all of the four-footed animals that are known to be unclean (Acts 10:12)
  • While Peter was thinking about the vision he was informed by the Spirit that three men were there to see him, which means the vision had something to do with these men (Acts 10:19-20)
These connections make it quite clear that the visions of Cornelius and Peter were related.

So what was the purpose of God giving Peter this vision?

God used this vision as a means to correct Peter on a view that he had held about the Gentiles. Peter perceived the Gentiles to be unclean (not a part of the covenant people—the Jews), but God loved these people, and sought to make this known to Peter in a vision.

Peter acknowledged this when he had said, “And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.” (Acts 10:28)

Notice how he had said, “God hath shewed me”, thus indicating that God did’t merely ‘tell’ him this, but used some other means to disclose/show this message to him—a vision.

Peter also expressed the purpose of this vision a little later in his response to something that certain men had said to him: “And the apostles and brethren that were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.” Acts 11:1-9

Notice how Peter connected the idea that these people expressed about the Gentiles to the vision that he had which informed him not to call any man unclean. There would have been no sense in him telling these men this if the vision was given to him for the purpose of disclosing instruction on what was permissible for him to eat.

By informing them of these things he was making it very clear that the vision was given to inform him that the Gentiles were not to be looked upon as being unclean, but as loved by God.

Now then, as to the relation of the visions that Cornelius and Peter were given:

1. Cornelius (a Gentile) was given a vision to inform him that he was loved and accepted by God.
2. Peter (a Jew) was given a vision to inform him that the Gentiles were loved and accepted by God.

Having said that, to use Peter’s vision as a means to support the idea that foods which are identified by the Bible as unclean, are now permissible to eat, is to read meaning into the vision that is foreign to the purpose for which it was given.

I hope this helps to clear things up for you:)
 
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