Usury

[DJ B.K.]

Hey I know I don't post here much anymore but I wanted to ask I question that I started asking my self because of a post in another Catholic forum I mostly just lurk in.

My question deals with the concept of usury. First of I'm not exactly sure what it is and would like if somebody could explain it. Also, I have heard that the Church and/or the Bible has called usury a sin and was wondering where this is said.

This is the post that I also would like people's thoughts on if people don't mind:

The FDA is responsible for deaths by keeping life-saving drugs from entering the market, even under experimental conditions to those terminally ill, until the standard 7-10 years of testing are done. At the same time, so called "plan B" abortion pill was fast-tracked, and the FDA constantly ignores the ill effects of extremely dangerous chemical contraceptives.

Social security is stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. It isn't charity, it's coercion. It's also expensive and wasteful. I'm happy with my mutual funds for my retirement, thank you very much.

The federal reserve prints money by fiat, and that money isn't actually worth anything. If it were gold backed, it would resist inflation much better. Also, private organizations are not allowed to print their own currencies for free exchange.

Public education is just plain evil. Education should neither be compulsory nor controlled by the government. It should be a private matter, like it was for the entire history of the world. My ridiculous property taxes should not go to pay for schools that my children will never use.

The church has taught since time immemorial that usury is a sin.

Employers paying for health care keeps me from choosing my own healthcare solutions on the private market, as there are few affordable solutions targeting individuals.

I basically asked the person why he thought things like the FDA & the others mentioned in the post were so bad and the above post was the answer. I'm not trying to cause controversy it's just that the post was addressed afterwards and I trust this forum for a more diverse opinion on the subject.

 

[JoeV]

Usury is when you lend money to someone and they pay you interest. Dictionary.com also says that it usually refers to charging ridiculously high amounts of interest.

As far as "stealing from the rich and giving to the poor" I believe he is referring to how the rich have to pay a higher percentage of taxes than the poor do. I haven't really thought about it that way, but for awhile I've liked the idea of a classless society, which is what would be achieved if the rich were taxed enough. However, I don't exactly know how the Church feels about communism (which accomplishes a classless society).

I highly disagree that "[p]ublic education is just plain evil". It can accomplish some good things, and for people who can't afford a private education it helps their children get an education.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I think we have to differentiate usury from the concept of social programs. Social programs are where taxes go to helping the aged, the poor, the disabled, and groups like that. Sometimes there is the concept built in that you will taken care of later or that there is a "trust fund" but it isn't really a loan in the traditional sense, nor is there interest paid in the tradition sense. In fact, mostly these programs have money going from you to the government to the people who need it within the same fiscal year. In fact, Catholic social teaching is usually interpreted as being conceptually fairly supportive of these types of programs, and has stipulated that the government has an obligation to seeing to the welfare of the poor
(The Church is strongly opposed to actual communism, but does not consider social welfare programs to be communism). And paying your taxes is just operating under the principle of "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" (It can not be considered theft under basic Christian principles, Catholicism has always held that the government has the right to tax and most Christian groups would concur).

Usury, a different matter, is the practice of loaning money with interest. For example, a bank, a loan company, or a mortgage company. At a more individual level, an example might be me loaning you $10 if you promise to pay me back $15 in a couple weeks. In the middle ages, usury was widely considered a sin by the Roman Catholic Church, but the Church has sense backed away from that and even operates it's own bank.

Personally, I actually think the Church's stance in the middle ages was actually a good one in many respects. Look at some of the problems so many today face with debt and having their homes taken away from them and such, and predatory loaning practices. I also think usury can sometimes create an inflationary effect -- i.e. more people can afford to pay more houses thanks to mortgages and loans, so the price goes up and then most people have to take out loans and mortgages to finance buying a house (Whereas many years ago, many people could buy houses outright). Having said all that, modern economics basically requires usury to some degree in order to create wealth -- without it, people on average would be significantly poorer, relatively speaking. So, it's probably a necessarily evil.

 

[WordofGod]

When we give as Christ like individuals, do you think we should expect something in return? It is written too give freely, should we always?

 

[QuantaCura]

Usury doesn't have to do with taxes. The Church has consistently condemned usury, but it was the Fifth Lateran Council that actually defined it:

"For that is the real meaning of usury: when, from its use, a thing which produces nothing is applied to the acquiring of gain and profit without any work, any expense or any risk."

It has also been applied to gain and profit going above and beyond a just charge for what the thing lent produces, the work done, expense incurreed, and the risk involved.

The post quoted in the OP has nothing to do with either application.

 

[QuantaCura]

Usury is when you lend money to someone and they pay you interest.

This would only be usury given certain conditions. Such a condition would be when you lent someone something that produced no gain and that you incurred no risk in lending. For example, in the middle ages money could be exchanged for an equal value, but it could not be invested to produce gain--you either spent it or horded it. So, if there was little or no risk that the loan would be paid back, it would be usurious to charge interest.

On the other hand, in the modern economy, there are high opportunity to costs to lending money (ie things you could be doing with the money instead of lending it which produce fruit) and money can be invested to produce more than was lent. Likewise, lending institutions have additional expenses to operate than just the opportunity to cost. Factor in the risk, and charging interest is not usurious--but, it one charged too much, it would be.