Usury and Capitalism

[mindlight]

I have an Eastern European friend who is quite positive about Communism. She also believes quite strongly that Christianity is firmly opposed to usury (in her definition - the charging of interest on loans) as indeed it was for much of its history. If it were not possible to charge interest on loans obviously much of modern finance would suddenly look like inistitutionalised corruption and we would be tainted by having a mortgage , by savings accounts, by capital loans for our businesses etc. In fact capitalism would be completely untenable without usury.

My questions are these:

1) What is the biblical definition of usury?
2) Is lending money for interest unethical?
3) Is collecting interest on a savings account immoral?
4) Is paying interest on your mortgage evidence of your slavery to a corrupt world financial system?
5) Has the church inherited the OT prohibitions on lending to fellow believers or poor people. Or is this a spin off from a replacement theological position and actually the words God gave to the Jews must be considered separately to those given to gentiles or become Christians.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I have an Eastern European friend who is quite positive about Communism. She also believes quite strongly that Christianity is firmly opposed to usury (in her definition - the charging of interest on loans) as indeed it was for much of its history. If it were not possible to charge interest on loans obviously much of modern finance would suddenly look like inistitutionalised corruption and we would be tainted by having a mortgage , by savings accounts, by capital loans for our businesses etc. In fact capitalism would be completely untenable without usury.

My questions are these:

1) What is the biblical definition of usury?
2) Is lending money for interest unethical?
3) Is collecting interest on a savings account immoral?
4) Is paying interest on your mortgage evidence of your slavery to a corrupt world financial system?
5) Has the church inherited the OT prohibitions on lending to fellow believers or poor people. Or is this a spin off from a replacement theological position and actually the words God gave to the Jews must be considered separately to those given to gentiles or become Christians.

Jesus said when we lend we are to hope for nothing again.
Then we will be the children of the Highest.

IMO we should not lend unless we have it to give.
We also are not to put our money out for interest.
That means, savings accounts, stocks, and loans.
Capitolism works fine as long as people have the freedom to buy, sell, and trade without Government regulations, that hinder freedom and cater to the greedy.It would also work very well without a banking system.
Did Abraham put his money in a bank? Or did he keep 318 fighting men around to help protect his assests?
Personally, I don't need a bank, I have a gun. I don't need insurance, I have God. As a general contractor , I now have to have a license. To get a license , I have to have insurance. These laws hindering my freedom to sell my services, and cater to the greedy insurance companies have just come to be in the last few years. So now rather than being able to start a business on my skill and hard work, It takes money to start one, and even more to keep it going. We now are no longer operating in true capitolism.
But as long as I can come up with the money , I can still choose what I will do. Not so with communism.
Even as bad as it's gotten, christian brothers could help one another out, by loaning thier money to other christians, with the mindset Christ told us to have.

 

[mindlight]

Jesus said when we lend we are to hope for nothing again.
Then we will be the children of the Highest.

IMO we should not lend unless we have it to give

That's giving in the manner of the Good Samaritan but has nothing to do with the structure and practice of his day job.

We also are not to put our money out for interest.
That means, savings accounts, stocks, and loans.

Can you support that with scripture?

Capitolism works fine as long as people have the freedom to buy, sell, and trade without Government regulations, that hinder freedom and cater to the greedy.It would also work very well without a banking system.

The availability of capital to invest and redirect to the best growth opportunities is actually what capitalism is all about and how it started.

Did Abraham put his money in a bank? Or did he keep 318 fighting men around to help protect his assests?

Abraham for all his virtues lived in a tent. While I would trust him to do the right thing a system of self protecting warlords would not always be the ideal arrangement e.g. Afghanistan or Somalia.

Personally, I don't need a bank, I have a gun. I don't need insurance, I have God. As a general contractor , I now have to have a license. To get a license , I have to have insurance. These laws hindering my freedom to sell my services, and cater to the greedy insurance companies have just come to be in the last few years. So now rather than being able to start a business on my skill and hard work, It takes money to start one, and even more to keep it going. We now are no longer operating in true capitolism.
But as long as I can come up with the money , I can still choose what I will do. Not so with communism.
Even as bad as it's gotten, christian brothers could help one another out, by loaning thier money to other christians, with the mindset Christ told us to have.

In Europe there might as well be no guns for all the rights we have to use them. An armed citizenry probably is a good safeguard for the institution of private property but in practice there are rich guys who can afford more gunmen than you can so I am not sure how much ultimate security there is in having a gun anyway if you get on the wrong side of the wrong people. God does sometimes let us fail and that can have severe consequences for the provision of our daily bread. In the long run it works out for the best though. I agree having a choice matters but I wonder how important Christian money is to Christian brothers when the welfare state seems to provide a basic standard of living far more effectively overall.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

That's giving in the manner of the Good Samaritan but has nothing to do with the structure and practice of his day job.
Luke chapter 6 verses 34,35 and 46
34)And if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what thank have you?for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35)But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and the evil.
This is from the sermon on the mount not the story of the good sammariton.If we are to lend to our enemies, how much more our fellow christians?
46) And why call you me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?



Can you support that with scripture?
Ezekiel chapter 18 verse 13
13)Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live; he has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.


The availability of capital to invest and redirect to the best growth opportunities is actually what capitalism is all about and how it started.
Not in the beginning.


Abraham for all his virtues lived in a tent. While I would trust him to do the right thing a system of self protecting warlords would not always be the ideal arrangement e.g. Afghanistan or Somalia.
I never said we should'nt have laws that have consequenses for evil doers.


In Europe there might as well be no guns for all the rights we have to use them. An armed citizenry probably is a good safeguard for the institution of private property but in practice there are rich guys who can afford more gunmen than you can so I am not sure how much ultimate security there is in having a gun anyway if you get on the wrong side of the wrong people. God does sometimes let us fail and that can have severe consequences for the provision of our daily bread. In the long run it works out for the best though. I agree having a choice matters but I wonder how important Christian money is to Christian brothers when the welfare state seems to provide a basic standard of living far more effectively overall.

Men of God, have always been able to start with less forces than the enemy, and come out on the other side victorious.

Just because the Govt. has a welfare system, does not relieve us from obeying Christ.

 

[wayseer]

I have an Eastern European friend who is quite positive about Communism. She also believes quite strongly that Christianity is firmly opposed to usury (in her definition - the charging of interest on loans) as indeed it was for much of its history. If it were not possible to charge interest on loans obviously much of modern finance would suddenly look like inistitutionalised corruption and we would be tainted by having a mortgage , by savings accounts, by capital loans for our businesses etc. In fact capitalism would be completely untenable without usury.

My questions are these:

1) What is the biblical definition of usury?
2) Is lending money for interest unethical?
3) Is collecting interest on a savings account immoral?
4) Is paying interest on your mortgage evidence of your slavery to a corrupt world financial system?
5) Has the church inherited the OT prohibitions on lending to fellow believers or poor people. Or is this a spin off from a replacement theological position and actually the words God gave to the Jews must be considered separately to those given to gentiles or become Christians.

You raise pertinent questions.

I understand that 'usury' is interest charged at an exorbitant rate.

Nor do I see that charging interest is, by itself, unethical.

The church has, to my knowledge, given money, goods, and services to a whole range of people without charge - and continues to do so.

But the present social and economic troubles are not the result of interest being charged - it is the result of greed.

It is overt greed which has driven demand which, in turn, drives businesses to produce that which is demanded. The object of big C Capitalism is to continue to create demand so that more and more is produced satisfying the orchestrated demand cycle.

That aspect of capitalism is unethical in my view and unsustainable.