Using the Tools that God Gave Us

[Presbyterian Continuist]

EEEK! Don't remind me about how old and decrepit I am becoming!

There have been a lot of arguments on some forums about the gifts of the Holy Spirit - whether they are for today, and whether the gift of tongues is necessary, and why should there be tongues and interpretation when we can just go ahead and prophesy; whether prophecies are true or false; why doesn't God heal people, etc., etc., ad infinitum and ad nauseum.

1Corinthians 12 and 14 are quite clear about the fact that God has given us a set of tools for Christian living and ministry to make us effective for Him in this world.

And I don't give two hoots about the supposed state of the Corinthian church. A lot of the comments about it are just pure speculation. Actually, from Paul's description of it, the Corinthian church was in a much better state than the churches that those who are giving negative comments are attending themselves! So, clean up your own funeral chapel churches before you criticise the Corinthians for their shortcomings!

So, it doesn't matter why Paul wrote his instructions about the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit. The important fact is, that we have his description of God's tools for us. And it doesn't matter that these descriptions are not written anywhere else. Why should that be? Have you ever read an instruction book where the same instructions are repeated in every chapter of it? Let common sense have its way here.

So, we have a set of tools that God has given us so that we can be powerful and effective in being able to fulfil the Great Commission. If we use them, God will be able to do the impossible, and save souls, heal the sick, cast out demons, etc. If we refuse to use them, we will end up spouting powerless and useless religious sayings which will fall to the ground and bear no fruit at all.

Do you want to bear fruit for the Lord. Then use the tools He has given you. - and this includes the gift of tongues.

I believe that those who are arguing about the gifts, and saying they are not necessary, are in a state of disobedience to God. (I am not saying that using the gifts are essential for salvation just in case some silly person decides that I am saying that.) But if you refuse to use the gift of tongues, and teach others that they don't have to use it, then do not be surprised if you lack power to be able to do the work God gave you to do. He would not have included the gift of tongues in the scriptural record if He did not intend you to use it.

You would be like a mechanic trying to recondition a motor car without a socket set. If your boss comes to you and offers you a socket set, and you tell him that it is not necessary, he would just stand back and laugh you to scorn before he fires you for rank stupidity.

My strong position is that the gift of tongues is essential if you want to fulfil the Great Commission in the power of the Holy Spirit. And you need the other gifts as well.

But if you are content with just having bless me services, and self gratification, instead of seeking to minister in power to others, then you can reject the gifts of the Spirit and go on being blissful in your ignorance. But what you will not know and realise is that the Holy Spirit will go and use someone else, or another group of Christians to fulfil His promises, and you will be just another wannabe who is turning into a hasbeen. Another powerless, disillusioned pew sitter, moaning and gossiping about others and the state of the church.

But you could change all that. If you decide to accept the tools that God has provided for you to witness and minister for Him, then you will see the power of the Holy Spirit supporting your ministry in ways that you never expect. Then you will be the Christian that God has designed you to be.

 

[ClementofRome]

...

And I don't give two hoots about the supposed state of the Corinthian church. A lot of the comments about it are just pure speculation. Actually, from Paul's description of it, the Corinthian church was in a much better state than the churches that those who are giving negative comments are attending themselves! So, clean up your own funeral chapel churches before you criticise the Corinthians for their shortcomings!

So, it doesn't matter why Paul wrote his instructions about the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit. The important fact is, that we have his description of God's tools for us....

As I assume that you are trolling, I will take the bait. Your conclusions above break ALL reasonable and logical hermeneutical principles. This is a great example of postmodern Bible study...kill the past, forget the author, who cares about the context cause we cannot possibly know what the author intended.....just read and respond.

If we cannot in some small way discern the context or the authors intent, then it sure as heck cannot be properly applied to our present situation. Shooting in the dark. Good luck.

 

[reformedfan]

As I assume that you are trolling, I will take the bait. Your conclusions above break ALL reasonable and logical hermeneutical principles. This is a great example of postmodern Bible study...kill the past, forget the author, who cares about the context cause we cannot possibly know what the author intended.....just read and respond.

If we cannot in some small way discern the context or the authors intent, then it sure as heck cannot be properly applied to our present situation. Shooting in the dark. Good luck.

MAN!! I wish you had yer rep thing turned on!!

 

[reformedfan]

I believe that those who are arguing about the gifts, and saying they are not necessary, are in a state of disobedience to God...if you refuse to use the gift of tongues, and teach others that they don't have to use it, then do not be surprised if you lack power to be able to do the work God gave you to do. He would not have included the gift of tongues in the scriptural record if He did not intend you to use it.

pretty funny conclusion you jumped to. Tongues in the Bible never meant the gibberish spoken today. How many non English speaking people have you actually been able to communicate to in a meaningful way, in their languages, without instruction, preparation & spontaneously?

Yeah, that's what i thought. I guess you just lack the power to be able to do the work God intended THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH to be able to do, so sad!

 

[edie19]

MAN!! I wish you had yer rep thing turned on!!

I was thinking that very thing.

 

[edie19]

pretty funny conclusion you jumped to. Tongues in the Bible never meant the gibberish spoken today. How many non English speaking people have you actually been able to communicate to in a meaningful way, in their languages, without instruction, preparation & spontaneously?

Yeah, that's what i thought. I guess you just lack the power to be able to do the work God intended THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH to be able to do, so sad!

Once again reformedfan, thanks for your knowledge and insight.

It never ceases to amaze me that those who advocate speaking in tongues often seem to forget that in Acts 2:4-12 that the tongues were understandable languages - that each heard in his native language.

My pastor grew up in a pentocostal church and he has related how they were taught tongues. If it can be taught, how is it a gift? Just curious.

 

[Reazzurro90]

Once again reformedfan, thanks for your knowledge and insight.

It never ceases to amaze me that those who advocate speaking in tongues often seem to forget that in Acts 2:4-12 that the tongues were understandable languages - that each heard in his native language.

My pastor grew up in a pentocostal church and he has related how they were taught tongues. If it can be taught, how is it a gift? Just curious.

I hope you realize that Acts 2 was not the only instance of tongues. You do know that, right? No one - first off - denies that tongues can be in understandable languages. Because tongues can be in both understandable languages and unknown, heavenly languages. Secondly, can you explain more on your pastor, and him being "taught" to speak in tongues?

 

[ClementofRome]

I hope you realize that Acts 2 was not the only instance of tongues. You do know that, right? No one - first off - denies that tongues can be in understandable languages. Because tongues can be in both understandable languages and unknown, heavenly languages. Secondly, can you explain more on your pastor, and him being "taught" to speak in tongues?

I hate to be so adamant, but because of the OP's assumptions, this thread is now about hermeneutical principles and not speaking in tongues.

 

[JimfromOhio]

In I Cor 12:29-31, Paul addresses the issue of tongues and other gifts. “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts.”

Gift of Interpretation: Interpretation of tongues (1 Cor. 12:10), hermeneia glosson -- that is, old word, here only and 14:26 in N.T., from hermeneuo from Hermes (the god of speech). Cf. on diermeneuo in Luke 24:27; Acts 9:36. In case there was no one present who understood the particular tongue it required a special gift of the Spirit to some one to interpret it if any one was to receive benefit from it.

Notice Paul's list of "gifts," 12:8-10 and v. 28; tongues (ethnic languages) is listed last, showing that they were the least desirable of all the gifts (cf. 14:5).

If the gift of tongues is active today, no church should forbid it. However, it must be done in the proper way. Going back to verse 27, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two - or at the most three – should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.” This is where I fault most churches that promote speaking in tongues, there must be an interpreter. If there is no interpreter, the speaker remains silent and speaks only to God and himself. If there is no one to interpret, the speaker does nothing but edify himself.

Going back to the concept of the church as a body, a body has every part that it needs otherwise it is considered handicapped. The church likewise should have every gift it needs. There shouldn’t be many churches who truly have people gifted in tongues that don’t have an interpreter. God will provide an interpreter if there is someone speaking in tongues at your church. Otherwise, it would be a church that is missing a part.

The Bible offers no clear proof that tongues have ceased. Many of you feel strongly one way or another about the issue, as do I. I do suggest that you take God’s word on it and where things are clearly spelled out, that the churches obey it. The best thing is to testify of Christ, preach the gospel, apply his Word to the whole of life and thought, and do not forbid tongues, as long as they meet the conditions established by Paul to prevent their misuse. Of course, those conditions cannot be met today, but if tongues were "active" today, they no doubt would be something like Paul laid out in 1 Cor. 14:18.

True spirituality is defined as humility and love for one another shown by actions, not by any "supernatural ability" one might think he has (see all of 1 John).

Do I believe in "tongues" for today's church? NO because I believe it has ceased. Also, "tongues" can be demonic today.

 

[reformedfan]

tongues can be in understandable languages.

They CAN BE? Well, that's sure nice of you to allow such a thing! Thanx, pal! But where are the Bible verses saying that they can be gibberish?

Because tongues can be in both understandable languages and unknown, heavenly languages.?

Does your church publish a "tongues dictionary"? Why d'ya suppose everybody speaks in tongues & they all sound different, how many zip codes are there in heaven? Did heaven have a 'Babel experience' where God had to introduce new languages to the legions of angels, so all 80 squillion pentecostals who all babble incoherent 'heavenly languages' all are understood by someone up there?

Do you have the phone number of anyone in heaven who would like to converse with me in English (or is that a "dead language" in the heavens?) Who do you speak to in this "heavenly language"? Dead people? Do you pray to them, too?

If ya wanna really know dead people, read theology books by the greats! (I'm pretty sure you can get them in English, so you can understand them better. No sense wasting time struggling through a buncha mumbo jumbo...)

Why d'ya suppose God can't understand English?

Secondly, can you explain more on your pastor, and him being "taught" to speak in tongues?

The cult i was involoved in snared many people through their 'speaking in tongues' instructional series, guess this is an important part of this "gift", wouldn't wanna pronounce something wrong & insult someone in the heavens on accident!

 

[JimfromOhio]

Spiritual gifts is walking in the Spirit, let the Holy Spirit do what He will through me. I will see what He does with me. I am going to desire to do when the Spirit directs me, and see people affirm my spritual gifts are going to be something that causes people (the local church) to respond, because it is for them. The idea of the spiritual gifts is simply that the Lord uses that gift in a unity, in a unifying way. God uses my spiritual gifts by His Spirit as He wills.

Happy are those who are in fellowship with other believers where they can live, love and labor together who share loyalty and devotion to God. Those who are after Christ's own heart are those who desire to improve and/or change for the Lord, individually and community. Believers who are united in Christ and desire to use their individual spiritual gifts with other members. Spiritual gifts are from within and are inspired by the Holy Spirit. The best place for Christians to experience their spiritual gifts are within communion of members of a local church. One of the gifts is love and that we are love one another and pray for one another. Blessed is a Christian who are good stewardship of their spiritual gifts. Who knows his/her gifts and exercise their gifts toward the other members of the body of Christ. Every local churches will always encourage members to witness, to pray, to encourage, to assist, to participate in their church's ministries. One of the examples of a true disciple of Christ is when he/she uses their spiritual gifts within a local Church.

Those are true spiritual gifts we CAN use TODAY !!!

 

[reformedfan]

Awww, that's not as flashy as trolling about tongues on the reformed forum, though!

 

[B®ent]

Reformedfan,

Good to see you again.

 

[reformedfan]

hey, man.

howahya?