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The Vigilant Citizen Forums, in the Religion and Spirituality section. My name there is cfowen. Don't ask why I'm on there. There is no separation between Christianity and Paganism, but there are a fair number of knowledgeable Christians on there. Interesting forum.Which other forum, where?
That's irrelevant. The resurrected Jesus uses his own name Jesus so it isn't a name only for when he was human, nor is it disrespectful.
Yes it does.
Or one of those Paul said are alive and remaining when Jesus returns.
I have already proven that to be wrong.
This is strange.
That he uses the name proves you further incorrect. This is a nonsense doctrine and fully unbiblical.
BTW, Paul uses the name 235 times in 220 verses.
Jesus:
220 verses found, 235 matches
Romans 38 verses found 38 matches
1 Corinthians 24 verses found 27 matches
2 Corinthians 16 verses found 20 matches
Galatians 16 verses found 17 matches
Ephesians 20 verses found 21 matches
Philippians 21 verses found 22 matches
Colossians 8 verses found 8 matches
1 Thessalonians 15 verses found 17 matches
2 Thessalonians 11 verses found 12 matches
1 Timothy 13 verses found 14 matches
2 Timothy 13 verses found 14 matches
Titus 4 verses found 4 matches
Philemon 7 verses found 7 matches
Hebrews 14 verses found 14 matches
Thank you. I deem you a thinking person, also, but I think you are allowing your being well-versed in the OT and Judaism to cloud your knowledge. When you made the huge change to Christ, I think you retained your Jewish spectacles and you look through them when you study. I just pray you will see the true nature of Jesus Christ, so your salvation will be assured. Somewhere, there's a verse which says you can't believe that Christ is NOT God. Sort of a double negative. I'll look for it. It's probably in John.
Of course, I believe in the inspired words of the OT just as much as you do. Every prophecy must eventually be fulfilled. What I don't believe is that any prophecy is being fulfilled during this 2000 year all Gentile parenthetical period we're now living in. This 2000 year would have never existed has Israel accepted Christ as their promised Messiah, during Christ's ministry and Acts. During these periods, the ONLY purpose was to convert Israel, so Christ would return and the Kingdom would be brought in. The formation of the all-Israel church, during Acts, was of secondary importance. Besides Christ, the main topic of the Prophets, in the OT, is the restoration of Israel's earthly Kingdom. To attempt to achieve this goal, many things were done (see below). In Mt 23:39, Christ says, essentially, that He won't return until Israel, as a nation, receives Him. There are several other passages that say the same thing - Acts 3:19-21, e.g. For this reason, the idea that Christ can return at any moment is wrong. I don't see this Gentile period being over for another 45 to 52 years, Until then, there is no Israel to convert.
(1) The Gifts of the Spirit were given, at first, to the 120 Israelite believers in the upper room. Eight years later, the first Gentile, Cornelius, was admitted to the church and received the Gifts. He was also the first Gentile to be grated into the good olive tree, which is Israel. The purpose of the Gifts was to better witness to Israel, through tongues and signs and wonders, as Israel required.
(2) Gentiles allowed into the church only for the purpose of provoking Israel to jealousy, so that, maybe, this would help convert Israel.
(3) Everybody went to the Jew first, even Paul, who was THE apostle to the Gentiles. Paul often went to the Pharisees, who were the Spiritual leaders of Israel. Had they converted, the nation would have followed suite.
All 3 of these things, plus Israel, itself, and the Acts church ceased to exist in Acts 28:28 (probably) or 70AD, when the temple was destroyed. 70AD has an appeal though, since that would make exactly 40 years between the beginning of Acts and the destruction of the Temple. A mentor of mine always says that: If Israel had converted during the Gospel period or the Acts period, the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 1000 years old.
Knowing what I know about the brand new all-Gentile church only found in Paul's last 7 epistles, which include a brand new unique calling of Heaven, all written after Israel was set aside, at the very end of Acts, it is impossible for me to ever conceive of Israel, which I know doesn't exist today, in God's eyes, of fulfilling any prophecy. Wait 50 more years and this will all change.
Look into 2Tim 2:15 and Phil 1:10, seriously. Note that they both occur in Paul's books written AFTER Acts. Check the meanings of the words in Strong's, because they are tricky - the 1st means "correctly cut" and the 2nd means "test the things that differ". The purpose of these 2 verses is to help prevent contradictions that would surely result if you blended Jewish and Gentile things together. Every mainstream denominational preacher, with no exceptions, is guilty of this. This would create confusion, which God is not the author of. To help eliminate this confusion, God has provided us with these 2 guides. Both are found in Paul's 7 post-Acts books. The reason is that these books are all Gentile and all the other 59 books, from Gen 12 though Acts, are Jewish only. Before the end of Acts, these 2 guides were not needed. Therefore, to correctly cut God's Word, we must make a single cut at some point that will result in everything on one side of the cut being all Israel and everything on the other side of the cut being all Gentile. There is only one place in the Bible where that can be achieved, Acts 28:28. Therefore, the only doctrine involving present truth for OUR hope, calling, rules, and directions, is found in Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. Rightly dividing implies that we must do something with these two parts once we cut them. Common sense dictates we must keep one and discard the other, but only as far as what directly applies TO US.
Please don't dismiss what I'm saying, because you think it's too complicated. It's far simpler than trying to pick the correct doctrine from an unholy blend of Gentile and Israel doctrine. The ONLY way to NT knowledge is by rightly dividing God's Word. There is not one mainstream denominational preacher that rightly divides - not one. Therefore, once you get saved (most are good at getting people saved), leave, if you really want to know truth. After you are saved, the ONLY benefits derived in a mainstream denominational church are fellowship and cheap pot-luck suppers.
I know that the true meanings of the words Jew and Jewish are more restricted than in the way I am using them. I am using them to designate any member of the 12 tribes of Israel, as I believe some writers in the NT used them.
Not Jewish and never have been. No one in the family was Jewish that I know of. But I did have a heavy emphasis on math in College. And I did have several semesters of literature and writing so that I can somewhat muddle my way thru the text of the Bible without stumbling all over myself.
But Ezekiel and Leviticus are tough to refute. As to why anyone would want to refute them, I have no clue. And that I didn't rightly divide the word as it pertains to Ezekiel and Leviticus, I used basic principles of Biblical Hermeneutics. I didn't allegorize the text one bit. I took its plain meaning.
Before the captivity, 2 Chronicles 11, 17, and other passages showed us that there was a migration of many of the people from the 10 northern tribes southward and joined themselves with the southern tribes. So there never has been "10 Lost Tribes". Even in the NT we have Anna from the tribe of Asher, which is one of those so-called "10 Lost Tribes".
Ezra and Nehemiah showed us that only a fraction of the Hebrews returned. And of those, Ezra calls the returnees Jews 8 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah calls them Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. And given that they were the ones involved in the return, I think they might have had a grip on who they were talking about, and they didn't think any of them were lost.
Only a skewed agenda based on folklore and internet conspiracy would derive that modern Israel is not fulfillment of the Word of God. It is probably the most glaring example of prophecy fulfilled since Yeshua returned to be with the Father.
And Hosea and Yeshua make it very clear that Israel as a corporate entity must be in place and call out to Him before He can return.
Hosea 5:15 - 6:1 (NKJV) I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up
Matthew 23:38-39 (NKJV) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’
You are mistaken. In the KJV, in James through Jude, there are only 2 instances of the word "Jesus" standing alone without "Christ" or "Lord" following it. They are both in 1John. The other 36 are probably either Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, or Lord Jesus. Looks like the disciples had enough reverence for their Lord that almost quit using His mortal man name.
To see this in the KJV or any other version, go to biblegateway.com , select King James Version at the top, and search for - "Jesus" -Christ -Lord. This will bring those instances where "Jesus" stands alone. On the top right side of the page is a list of the books where "Jesus" appears alone. At the bottom of the list, you will see that it only appears in James thru Jude 2 times, in 1John. If you just search for Jesus, you will get Jesus alone, plus all the combinations (total of 38) that include Jesus - like Lord Jesus and Jesus Christ, etc. The only problem with this is that, in just a few cases, like "Jesus is Lord", the verse won't be counted as a stand-alone "Jesus" one, as it should be, since I used -Lord in the search. I'll work on solving this problem, but it doesn't appear very often. Not enough to affect the numbers very much. I found no other Bible Search engine that allows you to do all of this, but I didn't look too hard.
In KJV there are 41 instances Of the name Jesus--Jesus usually does have Christ following it--reason for that---there were several others named Jesus at the time, the name was often a double name--in the old testament--it was Joshua. Why does it matter to you whether it is only used in combination or alone? Jesus Barabbas, was the captive robber, whom the Jews begged Pilate to release, instead of Jesus after Jesus had been arrested.
That is His English name---what we will e calling Him after the resurrection---0no one knows. There is nothi8ng in the bible about the language after the resurrection, I just assume it will all be one, as it was before the confusion of the languages.
- Jesus Barabbas, was the captive robber, whom the Jews begged Pilate to release, instead of Jesus after Jesus had been arrested.
- Joshua, was the famous captain of the Israelites, and Moses' right hand man and successor (Ac. 7:45, Hebrew. 4:8).
- Jesus, son of Eliezer, one of the ancestors of Christ (Luke. 3:29).
- Jesus surnamed, Justus, a Jewish Christian, associated with Paul in the preaching of the gospel (Colossians. 4:11.) (Strong’s Bible Lexicon)
- Jesus, "the Son of Sirach", the author of the Apocryphal book of Ecclesiasticus, who lived in the 3rd century BCE.
Rev_19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
You may use whatever name you want for no0w--you do not have the right to demand that anyone call Him by what name you want--and it will be only He Himself who will change His name.
SOME FACTS - I just discovered (3) and (4)
(1)** During Christ's ministry, the term "Jesus" was used, all alone, to discuss or address Jesus Christ. In the KJV, there are 558 "Jesus", 45 "Christ", 5 "Jesus Christ", 1 "Lord Jesus" and 1 "Lord Christ"
(2)** After Christ's ascension, 3 of the 12 plus James the Lord's brother, in their writings, had 2 "Jesus", 18 "Jesus Christ", 2 "Christ Jesus", 10 "Lord Jesus Christ", and 11 "Christ", for a total of 41 non-"Jesus" vs 2 "Jesus"
(3)***** James, the BROTHER of Jesus Christ was more respectful than anyone. He didn't call Him "Jesus" once. He called Him Lord Jesus Christ 2 times and Lord 11 times. HIS BROTHER!!!
(4)*** i can't believe I missed this, the title "Lord" all by itself. It was used in the NT a total of 477 times, as much as the total of the other Titles. That about cuts the "Jesus" percentage in half. Now, the "Jesus" in the 20 epistles occurs about 1& of the total
I rest my case. (3) cinched it. 5 stars. Anyone that can deny that all the main players intentionally eliminated most of their usage of the mortal man name of Lord Jesus Christ is as wrong as wrong can be.
I have no right to demand anything and I'm not demanding anything. I couldn't care less what you do. I can't understand why everyone is getting so upset about this. The very same thing happened on the other forum I'm on, when I introduced this subject. All I did was examine the frequency that these names and titles occurred in the Bible. I'm a math guy and these type things are enjoyable to me. I'm just passing those results along. I thought everyone would be happy to know this stuff.
I should have restricted the thread to Dispensationalists. As a group, one that has been doing that for awhile knows at least twice as much NT as any non-dispensationalist on the planet, which probably includes every mainstream denominational preacher there is. One reason is that they care about what the scriptures really say and mean. The main reason, though, that dispensationalists are so much more knowledgeable than everyone else is, is that they rightly divide or correctly cut God's word, 2Tim 2:15. In fact, the only people on the planet. I know of, that do rightly divide are dispensationalists. According to 2Tim 2:15, if you rightly divide, you are approved unto God. I guess that makes the reverse true, also. If you don't rightly divide, you ARE NOT approved unto God. That would make dispensationalists the only people that are approved unto God.
I'm not bragging. I'm just trying to nudge you into a position where you might know something. Before I became a dispensationalist, athough I thought I knew everything, I knew nothing. You can have a lot of knowledge, but if all that knowledge is wrong, you know nothing. Also, the odds are slim to none that, if you don't rightly divide, you'll never see your calling in Eph, Col, etc, which is to be far above all heavens where Christ now sits at the right hand of God, Col 3:1-4.
Congratulations!!----prepare to be translated any moment now!
Don't I wish! Since I do see the truth in Eph, Col, etc., and, since I know that when Christ first appears, far above all Heavens, I will appear with Him. Therefore, I will be in the first resurrection which, according to my guess, is about 50 years from now.. The rapture will be the 2nd resurrection, about 700 years later. Then the nation Israel will be resurrected to the Land, the 3rd resurrection. The 4th and final resurrection will be the White Throne Judgement, about 1800 years from now.
Here's my resurrection, and anyone else's that can see the truth found only in Paul's post-Acts books.
The Appearing
Col 3:1-4
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
In Ps 8:1, Glory is said to be located above the Heavens
Sounds pretty good, doesn't it? Sure a lot better than anything in Acts. You can have it if you have the guts to give up all that Jewish stuff. Satan has lied and convinced everyone, through that little girl in Scotland's dreams, nearly 200 years ago, that, the Bible lied about the Rapture and instead, Christ will come twice. The first time, He will pick up all the saints, living and dead, and take them right to Heaven. Totally Unbiblical. Zero proof. Satan's lie. Sure worked. Now you can't get anyone out of Acts to see their REAL rapture, the Appearing, which is at least 10 times better.
"Christ" is a title.
Coming in his name saying "I am Christ" implies Christ is more than a title but is also part of his name. Titles were used to make names. If you were a Carpenter and name was John, eventually your last name was Carpenter so your old title became a family name "John Carpenter".
Jewish stuff? Jesus Christ is a Jew--born one, raised one, died one, resurrected still in His humanity -- a Jew. What you are detailing are your own vain deceptions. You are entitled to your own believes---true or not.
We Gentiles that can see the truth in Paul's post-Acts epistles,
I am really not sure of just what you are claiming here by saying "post-Acts epistles". Paul wrote his epistles prior to about AD 60 while Acts was written about AD 90 or later. The Pastoral Epistles, 1 and 2 Timothy plus Titus, were written in Paul's name about AD 125 some 60 years after Paul's death.
Coming in his name saying "I am Christ"
I am really not sure of just what you are claiming here by saying "post-Acts epistles". Paul wrote his epistles prior to about AD 60 while Acts was written about AD 90 or later. The Pastoral Epistles, 1 and 2 Timothy plus Titus, were written in Paul's name about AD 125 some 60 years after Paul's death.
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