Use of the name "Jesus" is disrespectful.

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
There are 235 times, in 220 verses just from Romans to Hebrews where the names Jesus, or Jesus Christ is used after His resurrection.
There are 38 verses with 41 times it is used in James-Jude
12 verses with 14 times mentioned in Rev.
Just wondering why if the disciples had no problems with it--you do?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,419
6,800
✟916,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
We're not in the times of Revelation, Revelation is 100% future.

That's irrelevant. The resurrected Jesus uses his own name Jesus so it isn't a name only for when he was human, nor is it disrespectful.

Revelation doesn't apply to any of today's saved Gentiles.

Yes it does.

You'll either be dead and still in the grave, waiting for the White Throne Judgement, or, if you have the eyes to see the calling in Paul's post-Acts epistles, you'll be in Heaven.

Or one of those Paul said are alive and remaining when Jesus returns.



In any case, no matter how you rationalize it, the use of the word "Jesus" to address our Lord, is extremely disrespectful.

I have already proven that to be wrong.


Follow Paul. He's the last word in what you should do.

This is strange.


Why did Paul not use the too familiar "Jesus" 98% of the time.

That he uses the name proves you further incorrect. This is a nonsense doctrine and fully unbiblical.

BTW, Paul uses the name 235 times in 220 verses.

Jesus:

220 verses found, 235 matches
Romans 38 verses found 38 matches
1 Corinthians 24 verses found 27 matches
2 Corinthians 16 verses found 20 matches
Galatians 16 verses found 17 matches
Ephesians 20 verses found 21 matches
Philippians 21 verses found 22 matches
Colossians 8 verses found 8 matches
1 Thessalonians 15 verses found 17 matches
2 Thessalonians 11 verses found 12 matches
1 Timothy 13 verses found 14 matches
2 Timothy 13 verses found 14 matches
Titus 4 verses found 4 matches
Philemon 7 verses found 7 matches
Hebrews 14 verses found 14 matches
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mmksparbud
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Site Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Save all the trouble and call Him by His Hebrew name, Yeshua. Actually makes more sense anyway, especially in light of Matthew 1:21

Matthew 1:21 (NKJV) And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Yeshua means "salvation of YHVH". Using that name fits better.

"and you shall call His name Yeshua (salvation of YHVH), for He will save His people from their sins"

Then we don't have to worry about spending so much time on who did or didn't use Jesus. And the name is the same whether during the time Yeshua was here on earth or now as He sits next to the Father. He is the same Salvation of YHVH yesterday, today, and forever.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I posted this on another forum and got a lot of flak. I am so convinced of what I'm saying, I thought I would give it another shot. Since this is a form of right division and since dispensationalists are the only people on the planet that attempt to obey 2Tim 2:15 and rightly divide, I thought maybe dispensationalists would see the light. I didn't put a tag on this thread because the problem is universal and I believe everyone should at least take a look at this.

As a totally convinced 30 year Acts 28 veteran, I have always been taught, mainly in the writings and audios of Charles Welch and Oscar Baker, my main mentors, that the name "Jesus" was Jesus Christ's name ONLY when he had left His Glory behind and had come down to earth, necessarily as a man, in order to become the ultimate sacrifice. But now, He is no longer a man and the name "Jesus" no longer applies to Him. Instead, He should be addressed in a much more respectful manner.

In order to see whether or not this is true, I scoured the NT to determine the frequencies of the various Titles that might be used.and compare them, numerically, with the frequency oh the name "Jesus." The titles I tabulated were:

Jesus--Jesus Christ--Christ Jesus--Christ--Lord Jesus--Lord Jesus Christ--Lord Christ

I separated the NT into 7 categories. Here are the results. The numbers of the various titles and names are in the same order as I have written them above, in bold. I will do an Excel sheet at some point. The Bible version used was the KJV. I checked out some other popular versions and there were some variations, but, except for the Gospels, these were slight and would affect the results very little. I have no answer as to the large deviations of the Gospels. To avoid Version deviations, I am looking for a English/Greek version that is as easy to search as was the search on BibleGateway. With it, unlike BlueLetter, BibleHub and E-Sword, you could use search variations (e.g., + - " "), like those on Google. Also, on the right of the search page, BibleGateway lists each Bible Book with the number of how many of the search items are contained in each.

-------TITLES> ----J---JC--CJ---C---LJ-LJC--LC
--------Gospels --558--5----0---45---1--0---1
-----------Acts ---28--9----1---10--13--6---1
-----Paul's Acts ----5--29--15--126--13--44--0
Paul's post-Acts ----3--24--29---61---5--18--1
--------Hebrews ---9---3---1----9----1---0---0
-General Epistles ---2--18---2---11----0--10---0
------Revelation ---4---5---0----2----1---1---0

Paul's Books(13) ----8--53--44--187--18--62--1
-All Epistles(20) ---10--71--46--198--18--72--1

Totals of Paul's 13 epistles - "Jesus" vs All Others = 8 vs 365 = 97.8% Others
Totals of All 20 epistles - "Jesus" vs All Others = 10 vs 406 = 97.6% Others
Totals of all except Gospels - 51 vs 469 = 90.2% Others

In the Gospels, the nearly total use of "Jesus" was expected, since He was a mortal man, at that time, and that was His common name, the name by which people addressed Him.

Acts and Hebrews surprised me. In neither, did I expect that many occurrences of "Jesus." In Acts, maybe it was due to much of the discussions being about His earthly ministry.

The ones I was really interested in were the epistles of Paul, James, and the 12. To me, these are the keys to what we should do. Paul is our only apostle. He tells us to follow him in 1Cor 4:16, 11:1, and he repeats that up in his after-Acts books, in Phil 3:17. I take Paul's directions seriously. He only used "Jesus" 8 times on his 13 epistles = 2.2% of the times he addressed our Lord. Follow Paul.

The General Epistles, written by the ministers to Israel, James, Peter, John, and Jude, did almost as well - Only 4.7% usage of the much less respectable "Jesus".

I skimmed over the numbers of probably 30-40 other versions, on BibleGateway. Most were very similar, but 1 stood out - the J.B. Phillips New Testmant. It only had one instance of Paul using the the name of the mortal man, "Jesus". Then I saw that Mr. Phillips must not of believed the pagan concept of "hell", because he only used it 4 times, each for something unrelated, and there were none in the Gospels. I immediately found and ordered a new Phillips NT paperback on Amazon for $15. Who knows, it might be lousy otherwise, but anyone that has the guts to not tell lies about the faux hell in their Bible, deserves a chance to be read. I was disappointed that he left the comma in the wrong place in Lk 23:39, and he mangled 2Tim 2:15, by putting "how to use the word of truth to the best advantage", instead of some word involving cutting or dividing or dissecting, as Strong's says it means. You can't have everything.

Yesterday, I showed the "Jesus" numbers to my son and he said that, awhile back, he had quit a Baptist church because the preacher constantly used Christ's man-name "Jesus." He couldn't take it anymore. I didn't blame him one bit. Christ Jesus is surely not a man now and he hasn't been one for about 1988 years. Gotta show some respect. Do you call the Queen of England "Liz"? When Christ rules on Earth with a rod of iron during the Millennium, I pity anyone that addresses Him as "Jesus."

Until today, I never thought of this being a right division issue. For a 3-1/2 year period, when Christ was a mortal man, His name was "Jesus". Since about 30AD, His name has not been "Jesus" for 2 millenniums and our God, Savior and Creator deserves to be addressed by one of those 6 titles. We must rightly divide between His time of being a mortal man and NOW. Any of the actual titles Paul used is OK.


While I applaud you efforts at wanting to be respectful to Christ---I vey strongly feel that Jesus is more apt to feel that the name Jesus is the name to use as He was always wanting to draw closer to us---it was after the resurrection that Jesus showed himself to the disciples by cooking breakfast for them!

This is what Jesus wants--

Joh_13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

You may stand at a respectful distance at the resurrection of you want--I plan on running to Him and holding on, even if it is only by His feet!
 
Upvote 0

ac28

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2013
608
140
✟46,442.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Every name and title that the churches use for him
today is a translation or a transliteration or worse.

Jesus is a transliteration of a transliteration, from
Hebrew to Greek to Latin. His name is Yeshua or
Yahshua or Yahushua, the same as the man who
led Israel when Moses died (Joshua). Note there
is only one 's' in the name.

He came as a Jew, and his titles are all Hebrew.
He is Messiah, not Christ.
Alef and Tav, not alpha and omega.
Son of Yahweh, not god.

All peripheral stuff. Unimportant in this day and age, especially since Israel hasn't existed for about 1988 years. Today is 100% Gentile.

If you truly don't believe He's God, you're probably not saved.

Nothing pertaining to Israel has anything to do with your salvation, your hope, your calling, or your present rules or directions. Israel doesn't exist today, as a nation, in God's eyes. Israel are not God's people today. That privilege was lost in about 63AD, when Paul, fully inspired, pronounced that the salvation of God was given to the Gentiles, in Ac 28:28. This was right after Paul pronounced the curse of Isa 6:9-10, for the 7th and last time in the Bible - Ac 28:25-27 At that point, Israel was set aside, for their failure to accept Christ as their Messiah. Everything pertaining to Israel was also set aside, including the 100% Jewish church that existed during all of Acts. The saved Gentiles during Acts were all grated into Israel and that made everything during Acts belong to Israel.

The only church that exists today is the one founded AFTER Acts, the one found ONLY in Paul's last 7 books - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. Except for the Biblical report of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, nothing in the other 59 books have anything to do with US today. Everything for US today is found only in those 7, 100% Gentile books, whether you're a plain Gentile or a person that thinks he's a Jew. In those 7 books, the calling is far above all Heavens, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God. We are the only people in the Bible to ever have a hope of going to Heaven. Everything in this calling was a Mystery, totally hidden in God since the foundation of the world. This Mystery is totally different than the Mystery of Christ during Acts in Rom 16:25-26, which was hidden in the written words of the Prophets, vs 26.

The 7 books written DURING Acts were written to both saved Israelites and Gentiles. As I said before, Acts was essentially ALL Israel, since the Gentiles were part of Israel. For example, Paul Acts books (not counting Hebrews) contained the word "Abraham" 19 times and the phrase, "it is written", 31 times. To compare, Paul's 7 post-Acts books contain not one example of either.

If you want to go to Heaven, you'd better start believing that our Lord Jesus Christ is God. In fact, Jesus Christ was Jehovah. Jesus Christ was the Creator of all. Salvation starts with one's concept of deity.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,270
20,267
US
✟1,475,189.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
All peripheral stuff. Unimportant in this day and age, especially since Israel hasn't existed for about 1988 years. Today is 100% Gentile.

If you truly don't believe He's God, you're probably not saved.

Nothing pertaining to Israel has anything to do with your salvation, your hope, your calling, or your present rules or directions. Israel doesn't exist today, as a nation, in God's eyes. Israel are not God's people today. That privilege was lost in about 63AD, when Paul, fully inspired, pronounced that the salvation of God was given to the Gentiles, in Ac 28:28. This was right after Paul pronounced the curse of Isa 6:9-10, for the 7th and last time in the Bible - Ac 28:25-27 At that point, Israel was set aside, for their failure to accept Christ as their Messiah. Everything pertaining to Israel was also set aside, including the 100% Jewish church that existed during all of Acts. The saved Gentiles during Acts were all grated into Israel and that made everything during Acts belong to Israel.

The only church that exists today is the one founded AFTER Acts, the one found ONLY in Paul's last 7 books - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. Except for the Biblical report of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, nothing in the other 59 books have anything to do with US today. Everything for US today is found only in those 7, 100% Gentile books, whether you're a plain Gentile or a person that thinks he's a Jew. In those 7 books, the calling is far above all Heavens, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God. We are the only people in the Bible to ever have a hope of going to Heaven. Everything in this calling was a Mystery, totally hidden in God since the foundation of the world. This Mystery is totally different than the Mystery of Christ during Acts in Rom 16:25-26, which was hidden in the written words of the Prophets, vs 26.

The 7 books written DURING Acts were written to both saved Israelites and Gentiles. As I said before, Acts was essentially ALL Israel, since the Gentiles were part of Israel. For example, Paul Acts books (not counting Hebrews) contained the word "Abraham" 19 times and the phrase, "it is written", 31 times. To compare, Paul's 7 post-Acts books contain not one example of either.

If you want to go to Heaven, you'd better start believing that our Lord Jesus Christ is God. In fact, Jesus Christ was Jehovah. Jesus Christ was the Creator of all. Salvation starts with one's concept of deity.

Marcion with extra spice.
 
Upvote 0

ac28

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2013
608
140
✟46,442.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
While I applaud you efforts at wanting to be respectful to Christ---I vey strongly feel that Jesus is more apt to feel that the name Jesus is the name to use as He was always wanting to draw closer to us---it was after the resurrection that Jesus showed himself to the disciples by cooking breakfast for them!

This is what Jesus wants--

Joh_13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

You may stand at a respectful distance at the resurrection of you want--I plan on running to Him and holding on, even if it is only by His feet!

Assumptions are truth's greatest enemy.

Feelings don't count for anything.

Do you rightly divide? 2Tim 2:15, It says if you do, you'll be approved into God.

Do you test the things that differ? Phil 1:10 (See Strong's) - it says you do this to be sincere and without offense.

Who is your apostle?
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Site Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
All peripheral stuff. Unimportant in this day and age, especially since Israel hasn't existed for about 1988 years. Today is 100% Gentile.

Ezekiel 4 has poor Zeke lying on one side then the other for a total of 430 days. Each day representing a year of punishment due the Hebrews.

70 of those years ticked off during the captivity in Babylon. Leaving 360 years left.

But only a remnant returned from Babylon, so the majority remained in Babylon and therefor in rebellion to God. So, Leviticus 26 kicked in. If they remained in rebellion, the punishment would be multiplied 7 times.

So, 7 x 360 = 2520 years. Using the Hebrew Lunar calendar of 360 day year that Israel used, that is 907,200 days.

Now take that 907,200 and fit it in the Solar calendar of 365.25 days a year, and that comes to 2483.8 years.

The decree from Cyrus allowing the Hebrews to return to Israel was in the late summer / early fall of 537 BC, which would be -536.4 for math purposes. Now, -536.4 + 2483.8 = 1947.4. But we have to add 1 to the calculation since there is no "0" year between BC and AD. So it comes out to 1948.4, or roughly May 1948 when the modern state of Israel became a nation.

So one can claim everyone in it is only Gentile, but that exhibits a historical myopia. There has always been physical Hebrews in the land. Major Hebrew populations have always existed in the land... in Jerusalem, Joppa, Ashkelon, Gaza, Jaffa, Safed, and Caesarea Even during the crusades of the Middle Ages, the crusaders killed thousands of Hebrews in the land. In one instance, 20,000 were rounded up into the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem and burned alive as the Crusaders marched around singing "Christ We Adore Thee". Some Crusaders had contests to see how many Hebrew babies they could get on a sword. Kinda hard to imagine that there was only a minuscule number of Hebrews in the land.

Fast forward. When the modern State of Israel was created in 1948, 80% of the Jewish population were "Sabras".... Hebrews who had generationally lived in the land since the first century. The first major migration of Jews was from Syria and Iraq..... ancient Babylon area. The descendents of the Hebrews who remained in Babylon in 537BC had finally returned. Several hundred thousand of them.

And Israel was never an independent nation from the start of the Babylon captivity till 1948. The land of Israel we see after Babylon was controlled by Persia, Greece, Rome, Muslim Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire, and Great Britain. Only in 1948 did they become a independent nation again. Per the scripture as outlined above.

Now should I believe your assertion, or should I believe Ezekiel, Leviticus, and history? I'll give you credit that you are a thinking person and can determine where I stand.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Assumptions are truth's greatest enemy.

Feelings don't count for anything.

Do you rightly divide? 2Tim 2:15, It says if you do, you'll be approved into God.

Do you test the things that differ? Phil 1:10 (See Strong's) - it says you do this to be sincere and without offense.

Who is your apostle?

Jesus
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Assumptions are truth's greatest enemy.

Feelings don't count for anything.

Do you rightly divide? 2Tim 2:15, It says if you do, you'll be approved into God.

Do you test the things that differ? Phil 1:10 (See Strong's) - it says you do this to be sincere and without offense.

Who is your apostle?


But it is your feelings that you are going by--it is your feelings that the name is disrespectful, your assumptions, and have nothinhg to do with truth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,419
6,800
✟916,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Yehoshua – Original Hebrew Name meaning Yahweh is salvation
Yeshua – Shortened Hebrew version during/after Babylonian exile
Iesous – Yeshua translated into Greek
Iesvs – Yeshua translated into Latin
Iesus – Original King James English Edition
Jesus – Modern English Versions


Yeshua was a common alternative form of the name Yehoshuah or in the English Joshua. In Greek the spelling is Iesous. In Latin the spelling is Iesus. In English the spelling is Jesus. The name "Jesus" is fully accurate for any English translation of the Greek name.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,419
6,800
✟916,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
"Christ" is not a name at all

I think it is a name actually:

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
 
Upvote 0

ac28

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2013
608
140
✟46,442.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
There are 235 times, in 220 verses just from Romans to Hebrews where the names Jesus, or Jesus Christ is used after His resurrection.
There are 38 verses with 41 times it is used in James-Jude
12 verses with 14 times mentioned in Rev.
Just wondering why if the disciples had no problems with it--you do?

You are mistaken. In the KJV, in James through Jude, there are only 2 instances of the word "Jesus" standing alone without "Christ" or "Lord" following it. They are both in 1John. The other 36 are probably either Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, or Lord Jesus. Looks like the disciples had enough reverence for their Lord that almost quit using His mortal man name.

To see this in the KJV or any other version, go to biblegateway.com , select King James Version at the top, and search for - "Jesus" -Christ -Lord. This will bring those instances where "Jesus" stands alone. On the top right side of the page is a list of the books where "Jesus" appears alone. At the bottom of the list, you will see that it only appears in James thru Jude 2 times, in 1John. If you just search for Jesus, you will get Jesus alone, plus all the combinations (total of 38) that include Jesus - like Lord Jesus and Jesus Christ, etc. The only problem with this is that, in just a few cases, like "Jesus is Lord", the verse won't be counted as a stand-alone "Jesus" one, as it should be, since I used -Lord in the search. I'll work on solving this problem, but it doesn't appear very often. Not enough to affect the numbers very much. I found no other Bible Search engine that allows you to do all of this, but I didn't look too hard.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ac28

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2013
608
140
✟46,442.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Ezekiel 4 has poor Zeke lying on one side then the other for a total of 430 days. Each day representing a year of punishment due the Hebrews.

70 of those years ticked off during the captivity in Babylon. Leaving 360 years left.

But only a remnant returned from Babylon, so the majority remained in Babylon and therefor in rebellion to God. So, Leviticus 26 kicked in. If they remained in rebellion, the punishment would be multiplied 7 times.

So, 7 x 360 = 2520 years. Using the Hebrew Lunar calendar of 360 day year that Israel used, that is 907,200 days.

Now take that 907,200 and fit it in the Solar calendar of 365.25 days a year, and that comes to 2483.8 years.

The decree from Cyrus allowing the Hebrews to return to Israel was in the late summer / early fall of 537 BC, which would be -536.4 for math purposes. Now, -536.4 + 2483.8 = 1947.4. But we have to add 1 to the calculation since there is no "0" year between BC and AD. So it comes out to 1948.4, or roughly May 1948 when the modern state of Israel became a nation.

So one can claim everyone in it is only Gentile, but that exhibits a historical myopia. There has always been physical Hebrews in the land. Major Hebrew populations have always existed in the land... in Jerusalem, Joppa, Ashkelon, Gaza, Jaffa, Safed, and Caesarea Even during the crusades of the Middle Ages, the crusaders killed thousands of Hebrews in the land. In one instance, 20,000 were rounded up into the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem and burned alive as the Crusaders marched around singing "Christ We Adore Thee". Some Crusaders had contests to see how many Hebrew babies they could get on a sword. Kinda hard to imagine that there was only a minuscule number of Hebrews in the land.

Fast forward. When the modern State of Israel was created in 1948, 80% of the Jewish population were "Sabras".... Hebrews who had generationally lived in the land since the first century. The first major migration of Jews was from Syria and Iraq..... ancient Babylon area. The descendents of the Hebrews who remained in Babylon in 537BC had finally returned. Several hundred thousand of them.

And Israel was never an independent nation from the start of the Babylon captivity till 1948. The land of Israel we see after Babylon was controlled by Persia, Greece, Rome, Muslim Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire, and Great Britain. Only in 1948 did they become a independent nation again. Per the scripture as outlined above.

Now should I believe your assertion, or should I believe Ezekiel, Leviticus, and history? I'll give you credit that you are a thinking person and can determine where I stand.

Thank you. I deem you a thinking person, also, but I think you are allowing your being well-versed in the OT and Judaism to cloud your knowledge. When you made the huge change to Christ, I think you retained your Jewish spectacles and you look through them when you study. I just pray you will see the true nature of Jesus Christ, so your salvation will be assured. Somewhere, there's a verse which says you can't believe that Christ is NOT God. Sort of a double negative. I'll look for it. It's probably in John.

Of course, I believe in the inspired words of the OT just as much as you do. Every prophecy must eventually be fulfilled. What I don't believe is that any prophecy is being fulfilled during this 2000 year all Gentile parenthetical period we're now living in. This 2000 year would have never existed has Israel accepted Christ as their promised Messiah, during Christ's ministry and Acts. During these periods, the ONLY purpose was to convert Israel, so Christ would return and the Kingdom would be brought in. The formation of the all-Israel church, during Acts, was of secondary importance. Besides Christ, the main topic of the Prophets, in the OT, is the restoration of Israel's earthly Kingdom. To attempt to achieve this goal, many things were done (see below). In Mt 23:39, Christ says, essentially, that He won't return until Israel, as a nation, receives Him. There are several other passages that say the same thing - Acts 3:19-21, e.g. For this reason, the idea that Christ can return at any moment is wrong. I don't see this Gentile period being over for another 45 to 52 years, Until then, there is no Israel to convert.

(1) The Gifts of the Spirit were given, at first, to the 120 Israelite believers in the upper room. Eight years later, the first Gentile, Cornelius, was admitted to the church and received the Gifts. He was also the first Gentile to be grated into the good olive tree, which is Israel. The purpose of the Gifts was to better witness to Israel, through tongues and signs and wonders, as Israel required.
(2) Gentiles allowed into the church only for the purpose of provoking Israel to jealousy, so that, maybe, this would help convert Israel.
(3) Everybody went to the Jew first, even Paul, who was THE apostle to the Gentiles. Paul often went to the Pharisees, who were the Spiritual leaders of Israel. Had they converted, the nation would have followed suite.

All 3 of these things, plus Israel, itself, and the Acts church ceased to exist in Acts 28:28 (probably) or 70AD, when the temple was destroyed. 70AD has an appeal though, since that would make exactly 40 years between the beginning of Acts and the destruction of the Temple. A mentor of mine always says that: If Israel had converted during the Gospel period or the Acts period, the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 1000 years old.

Knowing what I know about the brand new all-Gentile church only found in Paul's last 7 epistles, which include a brand new unique calling of Heaven, all written after Israel was set aside, at the very end of Acts, it is impossible for me to ever conceive of Israel, which I know doesn't exist today, in God's eyes, of fulfilling any prophecy. Wait 50 more years and this will all change.

Look into 2Tim 2:15 and Phil 1:10, seriously. Note that they both occur in Paul's books written AFTER Acts. Check the meanings of the words in Strong's, because they are tricky - the 1st means "correctly cut" and the 2nd means "test the things that differ". The purpose of these 2 verses is to help prevent contradictions that would surely result if you blended Jewish and Gentile things together. Every mainstream denominational preacher, with no exceptions, is guilty of this. This would create confusion, which God is not the author of. To help eliminate this confusion, God has provided us with these 2 guides. Both are found in Paul's 7 post-Acts books. The reason is that these books are all Gentile and all the other 59 books, from Gen 12 though Acts, are Jewish only. Before the end of Acts, these 2 guides were not needed. Therefore, to correctly cut God's Word, we must make a single cut at some point that will result in everything on one side of the cut being all Israel and everything on the other side of the cut being all Gentile. There is only one place in the Bible where that can be achieved, Acts 28:28. Therefore, the only doctrine involving present truth for OUR hope, calling, rules, and directions, is found in Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. Rightly dividing implies that we must do something with these two parts once we cut them. Common sense dictates we must keep one and discard the other, but only as far as what directly applies TO US.

Please don't dismiss what I'm saying, because you think it's too complicated. It's far simpler than trying to pick the correct doctrine from an unholy blend of Gentile and Israel doctrine. The ONLY way to NT knowledge is by rightly dividing God's Word. There is not one mainstream denominational preacher that rightly divides - not one. Therefore, once you get saved (most are good at getting people saved), leave, if you really want to know truth. After you are saved, the ONLY benefits derived in a mainstream denominational church are fellowship and cheap pot-luck suppers.

I know that the true meanings of the words Jew and Jewish are more restricted than in the way I am using them. I am using them to designate any member of the 12 tribes of Israel, as I believe some writers in the NT used them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ac28

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2013
608
140
✟46,442.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
But it is your feelings that you are going by--it is your feelings that the name is disrespectful, your assumptions, and have nothinhg to do with truth.

By anyone that is capable of reason, it is disrespectful. Has nothing to do with feelings.
 
Upvote 0