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In Ezekiel chapter 18 those heading into exile blame the sins of their fathers on their current condition. God emphasizes he will judge all. What you are leaving out is how this wickedness came about in the first place. Paul answers this in Romans 5.
This is also the same subject Redleghunter, Godsgrace101 and I are just discussing in the last few posts. It seems as if in part the discussion is actually about 2 contrasting Reformed viewpoints on how we become guilty of Adam's sin, which is a very significant question to people at times. Whether we are guilty before we even exist, or instead become guilty because we sin because sin entered the world because of Adam. Of course the 2 views can matter in questions like infant baptism for instance.How many do you need? Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).
And now advance to how Paul develops this concept and the rest of the story:
Romans 3: NASB
10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
I agree with you that many seem to be Christian on the outside but are not on the inside. I can think of some pastors that don't even really seem to be Christian in attitude but that know all the right words to say.Yet look at the context of the entire passage. Look at what they do that is their claim to works of righteousness.
Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Agreed.24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Now note context here; does Jesus deny that they did these things? No He doesn't. They "look" Christian on the outside. But inside are "ravening wolves" (vs 16)
Now go back and start with verse 1 of the chapter. Jesus is talking about using discerning judgement and not being a hypocrite. Then He goes on to explain that what you see (or think you see) on the outside is not what's on the inside. And after giving a discourse of examples of this; He goes on to give the warning. "Many will say: Have we not....." And His response is to call them workers of iniquity!
Why? Because He's the only one who can see the totality of how far amiss their hearts are. Externally they "look fine". They've "fooled" a lot of people. There are other passages that explain how to spot these people in the church. They often seek leadership positions, so they can "lord over" other people. I've personally dealt with these types of people - how to spot them is a different subject though.
I'm not sure which verses your speaking of.Now after the sinner has been awakened to their need for redemption; verse 7-14 explain their experience. They diligently search and plead for the narrow gate.
Why is this?
Because they are awakened to the fact that if it is not opened to them; they have no hope. And they take not for granted that God would "let them in" because they understand that they don't deserve salvation! They don't deserve God's mercy. They know that!
They don't say in their hearts "Oh, it's OK; God will "let it slide" if I'm obedient enough." They know and understand that all their righteousness is as filthy rags. They understand they are destitute and without hope in this world. They understand that God is the only one who can fix them and they plead to Him to fix them.
Right.So in these passages, Jesus is explaining that the Father is good; so He will fix them. Because just as you are wicked and at the very least feed your hungry children; how much more will God bestow mercy upon a sinner who is thoroughly convicted that they are in desperate need of mercy.
I don't believe any of the above helps your case.6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I can honestly say that I know only God's love.And so I asked @BNR32FAN this question - and I present the same question to you. Are you, or have you ever been convicted that you are worthy of God's wrath and did/does that scare you?
This is what you asked:.
How could it be both?
Adam's sin WAS imputed to us...
Adam's sin WAS NOT imputed to us....
The second is correct and accepted by current scholars.
Adam fell causing all men to be included in that fall.
We have become sinners because of that fall....but we commit our own sins...Adam committed his sin.
We suffer from its effects...we are not judged on his sin, but on our own.
Could you clarify please.
In the above statement you say that the sin of one, Adam, is IMPUTED to all mankind.
Then in your post no. 88 you state that all mankind suffers from the EFFECT of Adam's sin...
Which is it?
Both.
This is also the same subject Redleghunter, Godsgrace101 and I are just discussing in the last few posts. It seems as if in part the discussion is actually about 2 contrasting Reformed viewpoints on how we become guilty of Adam's sin, which is a very significant question to people at times. Whether we are guilty before we even exist, or instead become guilty because we sin because sin entered the world because of Adam. Of course the 2 views can matter in questions like infant baptism for instance.
Mediate or Immediate Imputation? (yikes that's a long post, I finally starting skimming after 1/2 through, and the end is somewhat interesting)
Here's a much shorter version of the 2 views:
Several theories have been proposed by Reformed theologians to explain how Adam's sin is transmitted to others. The "immediate imputation" view holds that when Adam sinned, all of humanity became sinful simply by that act, without further consideration. Under the "mediate imputation" view, humans inherited a proclivity to sin because of Adam's act.[2]
Imputation of sin - Wikipedia
You know, thinking on it more, I'm not quite of the 'mediate imputation' view even, or perhaps more a blend. I think we are like Adam and Eve. We are the same species.
That is, if any of us was put in the Garden in their place, we would have sooner or later done the same as they did.
Yes now we need to move on as verses 13-21 explain the statement in verse 12.heh heh, I'm not sure whether you confused me with another discussion, but I've been talking with you about verse 12 for a while now.
No just trying to get everyone to read the entire passage.Are you arguing against the Reformed "mediate imputation" view also here in the thread?
Agreed!This is what you asked:
It's both. Here's why:
We are all under the condemnation of the one sin of Adam. We all suffer from the fallen condition.
I read the above:
Immediate Imputation
Mediate Imputation
from the post only.
As far as I can see, there is no real difference.
This is why this subject if very difficult to discuss...
ALL OF HUMANITY BECAME SINFUL
and
HUMANS INHERITED A PROCLIVITY TOWARD SIN
is the same....
Do YOU understand there to be a difference?
There is no partiality with God as to who desires to be saved.You are right there is no partiality for those condemned Jew or Gentile (which by the way is the context of chapter 2). We all suffer the same fate being under the wrath of God.
However, there is partiality for those who are in Christ Jesus:
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)
Bolded above would be in the Pelagian ballpark. Meaning only when we eventually sin do we become condemned. If that was the case a lot of people from Adam to Moses would have never died. Paul said they died even without sinning in the manner of Adam. It is clear from verses 12-21 it is Adams sin of disobedience which condemns.This is also the same subject Redleghunter, Godsgrace101 and I are just discussing in the last few posts. It seems as if in part the discussion is actually about 2 contrasting Reformed viewpoints on how we become guilty of Adam's sin, which is a very significant question to people at times. Whether we are guilty before we even exist, or instead become guilty because we sin because sin entered the world because of Adam.
You're right.Good question. It makes me think this: it's possible to have a sinful nature, but a small child is not yet old enough to be accountable, therefore doesn't yet have sin on their personal account (Rom 4:15, 5:13) (not old enough) (and I take David's verse in psalm 51 on sinning before even being born as hyperbole in keeping with the magnitude of sin he was repenting of). Put a different way we have a sinful nature. But I think we were made to be just like Adam and Eve to begin with, and not any other thing is even possible. It's simply the only possible way to have agency, free will, and be able to love by voluntary choice -- we'd naturally break faith at some point, and need a way to be atoned once we are sinning more seriously, but it's totally inevitable also.
How so? Yes same species as we cannot be any different physically. But Adam and Eve existed for a period of time without being condemned. From Cain to us today we are all children of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil which knowledge was obtained through disobedience against God.I think we are just like Adam and Eve, to begin with (ala Gen 1:27). We are the same species, to begin with.
The above is correct.Bolded above would be in the Pelagian ballpark. Meaning only when we eventually sin do we become condemned. If that was the case a lot of people from Adam to Moses would have never died. Paul said they died even without sinning in the manner of Adam. It is clear from verses 12-21 it is Adams sin of disobedience which condemns.
Try this one on. We are indeed Imago Dei, yet also children of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Genesis 5: NASB
1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man in the day when they were created.
3When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.
I don't know how many ways Romans 5:12-21 can be read other than Paul repeats himself in upwards echelon making it crystal clear.Agreed!
We all suffer from the fallen condition.
But we are not held personally responsible for his sin.
How do you account for a small child, baby or adult mental incompetent "having agency, free will, and be able to love by voluntary choice?"Good question. It makes me think this: it's possible to have a sinful nature, but a small child is not yet old enough to be accountable, therefore doesn't yet have sin on their personal account (Rom 4:15, 5:13) (not old enough) (and I take David's verse in psalm 51 on sinning before even being born as hyperbole in keeping with the magnitude of sin he was repenting of). Put a different way we have a sinful nature. But I think we were made to be just like Adam and Eve to begin with, and not any other thing is even possible. It's simply the only possible way to have agency, free will, and be able to love by voluntary choice -- we'd naturally break faith at some point, and need a way to be atoned once we are sinning more seriously, but it's totally inevitable also.
The dead who are children of wrath (Ephesians chapter 2) have no desire to be saved. That's all of us...until God makes us alive together with Jesus Christ (same chapter).there is no partiality with God as to who desires to be saved.
See above, same problem set. The dead don't desire anything pertaining to God and salvation.And there is no partiality for those who wish to be saved...God accepts EVERYONE that so desires salvation.
Yes the Gospel is preached to all. Many are called (the Gospel), few are chosen.
Are you advocating Universalism or something else?By saying He would be lifted up, Jesus meant how He would die.
And He would draw, or invite, ALL MEN to Himself.
And any of these who accept Jesus as their Savior,,,will be saved.
Meaning only when we eventually sin do we become condemned. If that was the case a lot of people from Adam to Moses would have never died. ...
Please edit and ask more clearly, since I'm unsure what you mean to ask.How do you account for a small child, baby or adult mental incompetent "having agency, free will, and be able to love by voluntary choice?"
The above is about John 15:1-10 right? I've seen it used a lot as a proof text for loss of salvation. The problem is few consider the audience (the 11 apostles), the context and most importantly the following verses of the passage.
The context: Jesus and the 11 just leave the meal and start their trek to Gethsemane. The last sentence in chapter 14 is "Get up, let us go from here." Judas is gone and at the very least John and Peter know Judas is the one who would betray our Lord. It is obvious to the other disciples Judas is gone from the other Gospel accounts. The very first discourse Jesus gives the 11 (the audience) is what it means to be a disciple.
John 15: NASB
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Verses 1-10 taken alone could be convincing that Jesus is warning His remaining 11 disciples that if they don't abide they will suffer the consequences of apostasy. If we take these verses along with the context of Judas in mind, then we can up that to a stern and sobering warning. Within the full context I would agree Jesus is telling the 11 this discourse on the vine knowing they know Judas is the betrayer. But it does not end at verse 10 and this is where it gets a bit more interesting and we understand the fuller context going forward:
11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
With verse 11 included in the discussion and context we see Jesus state why He is telling them this Vine and Branches discourse. So that His joy may be in them and that their joy may be made full. Not a statement of loss of salvation, or a "you better do this or" type of context, but to assure them they are not like Judas who is an example of a branch which would be burned up. But the dialogue continues:
12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14“You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.
More reassurance here from Jesus to the 11. He clearly states that He chose them and they did not choose Him. And what is clear within the context of verses 1-11 is they would go and bear fruit and that their fruit would remain. The key words are that Jesus chose them and appointed them to go bear fruit and that their fruit would remain. Obviously as the son of Perdition Judas was not appointed as Judas betrayed our Lord.
Chapter 15 is Christ reassuring the 11 that they are truly disciples.
As we continue to chapter 16 we see Jesus teach them about the Holy Spirit and how they will receive the Holy Spirit. In chapter 17 we see Jesus pray for His disciples (the 11) in what is called the High Priestly prayer.
Then we see all 11 run when Jesus is arrested, Peter denying the Lord three times. After all this assurance from Jesus the 11 abandon Him. Yet they were all kept, preserved and did not end up like Judas.
What's interesting is how Jesus restores Peter in chapter 21. He asks Peter three times if he loves Him. If we page back to chapter 15, Jesus makes the centerpiece of discipleship "if you love me."
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