Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

Albion · Nov 2, 2020

I appreciate the clarification, but it doesn't really change anything much. That's because I didn't have any particular denomination in mind and you are correct that you weren't singling one of them out for criticism either (or several, for that matter).

Perhaps it was my use of the word "overboard" that seemed too strong or that it looked like it was aimed at something in particular that you wrote...but it wasn't that. I was just thinking of what I've read or heard from quite a few people over the years.

Der Alte · Nov 2, 2020

RickReads said:
I think anything I went out and found would be automatic rejected by you just as you rejected the first link I posted faster then you could read it.
I already asked you not to try and sell me the Talmud kool aid. I already know some things about that. It is not accurate historically or otherwise. I`d rather be using some Geman mythology. It would be more interesting.
My interest in this thread was to work at understanding universalism better. I`m not here to debate mythology.
Afterlife in Judaism
'Heaven and Hell': New history of the afterlife shows origins of the idea

Your first source selectively quotes the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica. And this is part of the conclusion

Because Judaism believes that God is good, it believes that God rewards good people; it does not believe that Adolf Hitler and his victims share the same fate.

The second link quotes Bart Ehrman an avowed atheist professor and offers up the same tired old rubbish "Hell comes from pagan Greek philosophy" which is refuted by my post and your first link "Afterlife in Judaism."
As with most other UR-ites you quote anything you find online as long as it seems to support your assumptions/presuppositions.

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

Albion said:
Universalism was common in the early church, but that doesn't mean it was the norm. There's nothing that would suggest that it was.

Hmm... not the norm?
Let's read it again. Six theological schools...
Four were Universalist, one was Annihilationist, and one was Damnationist.
What was the norm?

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

hedrick said:
It's really hard to know how literally to take these passages. The standard example of a rejected group is Sodom and Gomorrah. "As when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighbors, says the LORD, so no one shall live there, nor shall anyone settle in her." (Jer 50:40) Yet Ezek 16:53 says "I will restore their fortunes, the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes along with theirs,"

That's a great point. Here's another example below. Interesting to note the exaggerated language used. Some of the same phrases used to describe hell in the NT. Especially verse 10 -- "It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever." Sound familiar?

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

hedrick said:
I have a vision, which I don’t make any claims for. In heaven I don’t think there can be any remaining alienation between people. So if Hitler is saved (and I don’t claim that he will be), perhaps he has to apologize and be reconciled with each of the 3 million Jews, one by one.

That actually tracks with Universalism nicely. The idea that the punishment will be curative and restorative. Hitler would be a changed man after apologizing to six million Jews. Especially when every one of them forgave him. What a beautiful thing. I can imagine the God that parted the Red Sea doing something like that. The good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one.

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

Cormack said:
It could be in reference to the unholy trinity, still for the sake of doing the Christian universalist justice we can’t write “some people do indeed perish,” they’d never accept that line of thought. Every man, woman and child is saved on universalism, even the creation is restored (e.g. the cursed ground and the animal kingdom.) Still this doesn’t ordinarily include Satan or any of the inhuman or angelic figures who regularly torment humanity.

If it has knees and a tongue, it will bow and whole-heartedly acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

throughfireytrial said:
I must argue against universalism...which you may not wish to hear therefore I'll be brief.
God is merciful and just as He Himself says. To be just He deals with sin...offers forgiveness to the sinner who repents from his heart and withholds forgiveness and eternal life from the wicked who remain unrepentant.
Deuteronomy 5:9-10
...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
(This, granted is an O.T. citation, but it illustrates God's Justice a desire for holiness in the inmost parts and true repentance where we fall short. All would perish if not for God's mercy in sending Jesus as a means of salvation and eternal life and as we see not all follow Jesus or love Him nor even seek Him.)

Who are the Elect?
According to your claim, everyone else is predestined to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. What kind of a god would do such a thing? Countless billions will burn forever? And you are fine with that?

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

Cormack said:
Doesn’t this make Christ’s work at the cross seem less victorious than early Christians and the scriptures proclaim? I mean, short notice analogy here, but compare it to a football match, the home team’s losing to the jersey devils 100-0.

Still, the home team have super sub striker Jesus Ronald waiting on the bench to change the entire complexion of the match. He finally gets onto the pitch and scores (10 goals.... )

No doubt scoring on the devils 10 times is better than zero goals, but the score line is still very bleak looking to me.

Especially bleak when it seems that God wants mankind to be saved, so it’s not just a guy thing or human standards of value, wanting to win more converts like it’s a big game of bank the soul (rather it’s Gods standard to say He wants the lost to live.)

ON TOPIC: On the scriptural front that’s how many Christians reconcile the trouble passages, by invoking Gods power and (seemingly good) priorities to save over the material that appears to point towards God having an ending to His work that’s anything less than a perfect victory on His part.

There are difficult scriptures for Damnationists as well.
Since Jesus was sent to be the Savior of the world (all people), did he succeed, or is he an eternal failure?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

chad kincham said:
Unfortunately our destiny is set when we die, no second chances.

Heb 9:27 Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God.

One option for judgment that tends to be overlooked is mercy.

Saint Steven · Nov 2, 2020

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Bruce Leiter · Nov 2, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

Universalists can't get by all those verses because Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 are clear that God has chosen believers out of the stream of humanity. The only question in my mind is why? There's no answer in Scripture because no one's worthy of God's rescue.

RickReads · Nov 2, 2020

Der Alte said:
Your first source selectively quotes the Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica. And this is part of the conclusion

Because Judaism believes that God is good, it believes that God rewards good people; it does not believe that Adolf Hitler and his victims share the same fate.
The second link quotes Bart Ehrman an avowed atheist professor and offers up the same tired old rubbish "Hell comes from pagan Greek philosophy" which is refuted by my post and your first link "Afterlife in Judaism."
As with most other UR-ites you quote anything you find online as long as it seems to support your assumptions/presuppositions.

And just what are my assumptions/presuppositions? I doubt that you read anything that I said prior to my rejection of your mythology book.

RickReads · Nov 2, 2020

Bruce Leiter said:
Universalists can't get by all those verses because Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 are clear that God has chosen believers out of the stream of humanity. The only question in my mind is why? There's no answer in Scripture because no one's worthy of God's rescue.

I don`t think it`s that complicated, I believe God wanted a family.

RickReads · Nov 2, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That's a great point. Here's another example below. Interesting to note the exaggerated language used. Some of the same phrases used to describe hell in the NT. Especially verse 10 -- "It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever." Sound familiar?

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

The destruction of historical Edom was a foreshadow event. Isaiah 34 is a prophecy of the "Day of the Lord" and it references the battle of "armageddon." Edom is a metaphor for the Gentile world unfortunately for the West.

Cormack · Nov 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
If it has knees and a tongue, it will bow and whole-heartedly acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord.

Revelation does the same (5:13)...

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

The traditionalist reply to that chapter (Philippians 2) is to insist that the bowing of every knee, and even the confession of the mouth, are forced out of creatures, begrudged behaviours by the whole of creation that Christ comes to defeat and humble (so the bowing and confessions under this view are less than voluntary.)

However much we value the ideas of love and human liberty to confess with our mouths that “Jesus is Lord” freely and joyfully, that will decide whether or not we find the traditional explanation of those verses in Philippians and Revelation convincing.

I don’t find the classical interpretation of those verses very compelling in light of scripture or reason.

I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you. Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you.

Psalm 32:8-9.

For readers who believe that the universalist perspective doesn’t provide waves of scripture as it’s support, that’s not the case. Universalism has an impressive array of verses that appear to point towards God restoring and redeeming everyone and everything.

Col. 1:15, 16

Col. 1: 27, 28

1 Cor. 3:14, 15

1 Cor. 15:22

2 Cor. 5:14

2 Cor. 5:19, 20

Eph. 1:10, 11

Gen. 12:3, 28:14

Gen. 18:18

1 Chron. 16:34

1 John 2:2

Gal 3:8

Heb. 8:11

Isaiah 25:6-8

Isaiah 26:9

Isaiah 40:5

Isaiah 45:21-25

Isaiah 52:10

Isaiah 57:16

Isaiah 65:1

James 2:13

Joel 2:28

John 3:35

John 6:33

John 12:32

Lam. 3:21-24

Lam. 3:31, 32

Matt. 5:44, 45

2 Peter 3:9

Psalm 22:27, 29

Psalm 24:1

Psalm 65:2-4

Psalm 66:3, 4

Psalm 86:9

Psalm 138:4

Psalm 145:8-10

Psalm 145:16

Psalm 145:17

1 Timothy 2:3–6

1 Timothy 4:10

Rev. 5:13

Rev. 15:4

Romans 5:20

Rom. 8:20, 21

Rom. 11:26

Rom. 11:36

Romans 11:32

Titus 2:11

For anyone that’s curious, I’d recommend reading the verses, then reading the chapter to see if the vision of a universal restoration is as harmonious with scripture as many people are saying.

For my part I’d simply be happy if people outside of the universalist camp (e.g. the traditionalists and annihilationists) could accept that Christian Universalism really is Christian. The annihilationists faced this same treatment in academia, so they should appreciate what the Christian universalist is up against.

Christian Universalism isn’t straight up secular universalism, it’s not Hindu or Buddhist and not every religious path is the path to God on Christian Universalism, Jesus is the only way, it’s just that God in His mercy will see to it that every man, woman and child comes by Jesus.

Since the earliest councils the Christian universalists were allowed their seat at the table, but much lesser figures in the topic have already condemned Christian universalists as being outside of practicing authentic Christianity. Hopefully they’ll reconsider their opposition.

chad kincham · Nov 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
One option for judgment that tends to be overlooked is mercy.

The chance for mercy by repenting of sins and believing in Jesus is only during this mortal life.

That’s the way it is.

chad kincham · Nov 3, 2020

Cormack said:
Revelation does the same (5:13)...

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

The traditionalist reply to that chapter (Philippians 2) is to insist that the bowing of every knee, and even the confession of the mouth, are forced out of creatures, begrudged behaviours by the whole of creation that Christ comes to defeat and humble (so the bowing and confessions under this view are less than voluntary.)

However much we value the ideas of love and human liberty to confess with our mouths that “Jesus is Lord” freely and joyfully, that will decide whether or not we find the traditional explanation of those verses in Philippians and Revelation convincing.

I don’t find the classical interpretation of those verses very compelling in light of scripture or reason.

I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you. Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you.

Psalm 32:8-9.

For readers who believe that the universalist perspective doesn’t provide waves of scripture as it’s support, that’s not the case. Universalism has an impressive array of verses that appear to point towards God restoring and redeeming everyone and everything.

Col. 1:15, 16

Col. 1: 27, 28

1 Cor. 3:14, 15

1 Cor. 15:22

2 Cor. 5:14

2 Cor. 5:19, 20

Eph. 1:10, 11

Gen. 12:3, 28:14

Gen. 18:18

1 Chron. 16:34

1 John 2:2

Gal 3:8

Heb. 8:11

Isaiah 25:6-8

Isaiah 26:9

Isaiah 40:5

Isaiah 45:21-25

Isaiah 52:10

Isaiah 57:16

Isaiah 65:1

James 2:13

Joel 2:28

John 3:35

John 6:33

John 12:32

Lam. 3:21-24

Lam. 3:31, 32

Matt. 5:44, 45

2 Peter 3:9

Psalm 22:27, 29

Psalm 24:1

Psalm 65:2-4

Psalm 66:3, 4

Psalm 86:9

Psalm 138:4

Psalm 145:8-10

Psalm 145:16

Psalm 145:17

1 Timothy 2:3–6

1 Timothy 4:10

Rev. 5:13

Rev. 15:4

Romans 5:20

Rom. 8:20, 21

Rom. 11:26

Rom. 11:36

Romans 11:32

Titus 2:11

For anyone that’s curious, I’d recommend reading the verses, then reading the chapter to see if the vision of a universal restoration is as harmonious with scripture as many people are saying.

For my part I’d simply be happy if people outside of the universalist camp (e.g. the traditionalists and annihilationists) could accept that Christian Universalism really is Christian. The annihilationists faced this same treatment in academia, so they should appreciate what the Christian universalist is up against.

Christian Universalism isn’t straight up secular universalism, it’s not Hindu or Buddhist and not every religious path is the path to God on Christian Universalism, Jesus is the only way, it’s just that God in His mercy will see to it that every man, woman and child comes by Jesus.

Since the earliest councils the Christian universalists were allowed their seat at the table, but much lesser figures in the topic have already condemned Christian universalists as being outside of practicing authentic Christianity. Hopefully they’ll reconsider their opposition.

You don’t get to quote just the verses you like, and ignore Jesus’ clear words.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not IS CONDEMNED already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

chad kincham · Nov 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.

This is future yet.

The Lords day of vengeance occurs at Jesus’ second coming.

Cormack · Nov 3, 2020

chad kincham said:
You don’t get to quote just the verses you like, and ignore Jesus’ clear words.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not IS CONDEMNED already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

@Justified_By_Christ_Alone and myself already discussed that problem passage in the early pages of the topic. In our exchange the objects of that final condemnation weren’t decided upon.

Although there being a condemnation isn’t rejected by the Christian universalist, but the nature, purpose and duration of the condemnation is where people disagree.

chad kincham · Nov 3, 2020

Cormack said:
Revelation does the same (5:13)...

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

The traditionalist reply to that chapter (Philippians 2) is to insist that the bowing of every knee, and even the confession of the mouth, are forced out of creatures, begrudged behaviours by the whole of creation that Christ comes to defeat and humble (so the bowing and confessions under this view are less than voluntary.)

However much we value the ideas of love and human liberty to confess with our mouths that “Jesus is Lord” freely and joyfully, that will decide whether or not we find the traditional explanation of those verses in Philippians and Revelation convincing.

I don’t find the classical interpretation of those verses very compelling in light of scripture or reason.

I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my loving eye on you. Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you.

Psalm 32:8-9.

For readers who believe that the universalist perspective doesn’t provide waves of scripture as it’s support, that’s not the case. Universalism has an impressive array of verses that appear to point towards God restoring and redeeming everyone and everything.

Col. 1:15, 16

Col. 1: 27, 28

1 Cor. 3:14, 15

1 Cor. 15:22

2 Cor. 5:14

2 Cor. 5:19, 20

Eph. 1:10, 11

Gen. 12:3, 28:14

Gen. 18:18

1 Chron. 16:34

1 John 2:2

Gal 3:8

Heb. 8:11

Isaiah 25:6-8

Isaiah 26:9

Isaiah 40:5

Isaiah 45:21-25

Isaiah 52:10

Isaiah 57:16

Isaiah 65:1

James 2:13

Joel 2:28

John 3:35

John 6:33

John 12:32

Lam. 3:21-24

Lam. 3:31, 32

Matt. 5:44, 45

2 Peter 3:9

Psalm 22:27, 29

Psalm 24:1

Psalm 65:2-4

Psalm 66:3, 4

Psalm 86:9

Psalm 138:4

Psalm 145:8-10

Psalm 145:16

Psalm 145:17

1 Timothy 2:3–6

1 Timothy 4:10

Rev. 5:13

Rev. 15:4

Romans 5:20

Rom. 8:20, 21

Rom. 11:26

Rom. 11:36

Romans 11:32

Titus 2:11

For anyone that’s curious, I’d recommend reading the verses, then reading the chapter to see if the vision of a universal restoration is as harmonious with scripture as many people are saying.

For my part I’d simply be happy if people outside of the universalist camp (e.g. the traditionalists and annihilationists) could accept that Christian Universalism really is Christian. The annihilationists faced this same treatment in academia, so they should appreciate what the Christian universalist is up against.

Christian Universalism isn’t straight up secular universalism, it’s not Hindu or Buddhist and not every religious path is the path to God on Christian Universalism, Jesus is the only way, it’s just that God in His mercy will see to it that every man, woman and child comes by Jesus.

Since the earliest councils the Christian universalists were allowed their seat at the table, but much lesser figures in the topic have already condemned Christian universalists as being outside of practicing authentic Christianity. Hopefully they’ll reconsider their opposition.

Universalism is straight-up a doctrine of demons for those with itching ears, to deceive people into thinking they get a second chance after they die to escape eternal torment, so they can live how they want now, and sin as much as they want.

Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

Facilitator

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency