Universalist Denominations

ottaia said:

But in this situation, the punishment is used as a deterent and as a means of removing the person for harming others. In the afterlife, who is going to be harmed?

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Ottaia, I'll have you know that not only do I know who Laurie Anderson is I went to many of her concerts(in the old days).

hmm after all said, i think i'm left with just giving my repeated statements.

if the traditional view is right, then God has a favoritism issue like some parents have with their children, and God's power become limited to the minority, and God's power is not as strong as we once thought it was. if God destroys all "evil" beings with no shot at redemption in the life here and now or the afterlife, then the passion on the cross has gone in vain (in my personal estimation.) i'm not saying the cross is only for the afterlife, but in my opinion, what happened on the cross was too big, too monumental to either be one for the here and now only, or to be for the afterlife only. it has to be equally for both. if one goes too far with universalism, then justice is left out and that turns God into a hippie loving being (no offense to hippies if there are any in here.) if one takes it too far, as paxigoth said, the idea of sin becomes a less serious issue, which should never be.

where i see validity in universalism is when universalism is applied to the idea that in the afterlife, anyone who's disposition towards God isn't what it should be, shall have a time of cleansing/"hell". i don't believe in eternal torment anymore, but i do believe in a sense of hell of going against the love of God and what that must have to feel like and do to one's mind, spirit and soul after all the time on earth to at least come as close as we can. God is a great scheduler. there was a specific time for Jesus to come, a specific time for His second coming, a specific time set for everything. and when the time comes that God brings every knee to say the magnificant words, Jesus Christ is Lord, then i hope that is the day God's Will to bring back all His creation has come into completetion. that the conquering of death will be final and everlasting. and what does that have for today? it shows what is actually more important. the here and now. to be a part of the bringing of the Kingdom of God to this earth. to pluck out of ourselves this idea of living in the fear of what will happen to our souls in the afterlife, and to re-adjust the reasons why we live good, why we strive for godliness, why we strive for perfection (even though as the scriptures say, we'll never reach the mark anyways). and for at least me, it refreshens the ideas that God is actually powerful enough to save the world, that God is actually benevolvant, that God has actually has a sense of justice to Him, that what Jesus did is actually truly saving the world, and what Jesus did is actually more for the world, than just for me, and a few others, and that what Jesus did is actually as powerful as us Christians want to believe it is.

tattedsaint said:

where i see validity in universalism is when universalism is applied to the idea that in the afterlife, anyone who's disposition towards God isn't what it should be, shall have a time of cleansing/"hell".

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Sort of like the buddhist conception of karma, except without the return ticket. My readiongs of the OY passages on Sheol give me no reason to believe that it is at all like the traditional view of hell (to head off the obvious, nor does there seem to be a corrilary to the lake of fire in Revelation). I wonder if Sheol is the next step in our spiritual developement. Perhaps only those so commited to evil that they are unchangeable even in Sheol are destined for the lake of fire, and oblivian.

Thanks tattedsaint - why I come here is for new ways of looking at old things, and you certainly served us well today.

ottaia said:

But in this situation, the punishment is used as a deterent and as a means of removing the person for harming others. In the afterlife, who is going to be harmed?

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Becasue I don't know who could be harmed. On the other hand, John tells us that the saints in Sheol will be praying to God for justice against their opressors.

This could actually mean that such prayers are proper, could be that as Charles proposed, the very reason that they are still in sheol is because they could not forgive their enemy?

You guys know that if you convince me of this I'm going to be out of work? (My church is pretty darn tolerant of theological speculation, but outright heresy is a no-no ) Oh well, his truth is more important than a job. (But I will miss my congregation, I've cxome to love them very much)

hmm some interesting thoughts there... I personally believe that only atheists (through and through that is) will be destined for the lake of fire. I am not absolutely sure about agnostics though as they haven't really rejected or accepted. It is possible that agnostics may go through a tougher purgatory sort of thing than believers of other religions. Ultimately though everyone except deadset atheists will be saved.

The only snag though is such beliefs that are condemned by the Bible.

Rev. Smith said:

Sort of like the buddhist conception of karma, except without the return ticket. My readiongs of the OY passages on Sheol give me no reason to believe that it is at all like the traditional view of hell (to head off the obvious, nor does there seem to be a corrilary to the lake of fire in Revelation). I wonder if Sheol is the next step in our spiritual developement. Perhaps only those so commited to evil that they are unchangeable even in Sheol are destined for the lake of fire, and oblivian.

Thanks tattedsaint - why I come here is for new ways of looking at old things, and you certainly served us well today.

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your welcome Rev. Smith. i don't have the audacity to go around and say i'm right on all of this. all i know is, this is where i'm at now, and where i'm going towards. and it really occured to me after one day i was thinking to myself, ok where is the support that universalists say is in the Bible. so i found a big list, looked through it all, read the verses before and after, cause i hate just picking a verse in either mid sentence and making it proof of what theological view i'm researching about.

and for me the climatic point was when it said, that God will make every knee bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. now, i remember when i was younger, i'd hear that all the time in praise and worship songs and hymns. but i never thought about it. i mean, it's used in worship songs, so i figure, this is a sense of God forcing the world to worship Him, to honor and give Him praise. so be it. but we are told in church that those who confess Jesus is Lord shall be saved. i mean it's the whole idea behind alter calls, or "ministry" for a lot of Christians. and i do believe that confession helps us to get to that point with God. it's a powerful statement. nothing to be taken lightly or forgranted. but after reading some of the verses about Jesus's death, doing a little research on hell and the mythologicalness of it, and some of the connections Christians use with hell, i don't know it was either one a light bulb kicked on, or two everything just fit together differently. i wasn't trying to prove universalism, it's just i saw these supposed verses, looked it all up, read the verses before and after to help out some more, and that verse that says that God will make every knee bow down and confess Jesus Christ is Lord, was what it almost put the final nail in the coffin for me (metaphorically speaking.)

i'm coming to this because, what point would God have to do that? God the Father, will make every knee bow down and confess Jesus Christ is Lord. now is this is supposed to be some kind of imagery as we see in the dictators of Rome that all the subjects whether in slavery, or in the comfy life will praise Caesar? i highly doubt that. i want to believe that if God truly wants to save this world, He will not stop at a few amount. i want to believe that God's will to bring back all His creation is not so powerless to be confined to our own free-will (if there is such a thing.) the catch of this for me is, Jesus is the Way. i don't believe any other "figure" had this kind of power. i believe only Jesus had/has this power.

i saw your last post. i can't help but kind of chuckle, but also tell you that i just want to give you things to think about if it means anything coming from a "punk kid" as me, hehe. i just believe in taking both sides and comparing the validity of the two and think about everything that ties into together with this stuff. i dont' understand how things get classified as heresy. but if i'm becoming a heretic, so be it i guess. i don't know why it's such a touchy topic. it must be because people want that specialness of being set apart from the "others." it must conflict with one's world that a specific religion is the best way. i remember a friend of mine, a Christian i knew when i was going to college. i don't know if he was a universalist or not, but i remember he told me, "all religions are lights but Jesus is the LIGHT." out of everything that was said in this time of my life, it was a rough time in my life and i messed some things up, but after all the things said from Christians and whoever, this one thing here stood out for me. so i dont' know why this is such a touchy issue. i mean, "heresies" don't seem to be too touchy to me. i mean the Protestant Reformation fractionalized Christianity and to be deemed heresy a council needs to be in order correct? well in my estimation, Christianity took a brand new start after the Reformation. there was no continuance of the way things were going after that. Christianity started over completely, in my either humble, or not so humble opinion on this matter. so it almost makes me laugh to think someone believes this idea of universalism or any idea is heresy in the modern times. there's no structure figure to make a justfied "verdict." and i'm curious to wonder if we had councils and if we had groups in our modern times making such descisions over matters of theoogy and if they had no play with desicions made already, i just wonder what would be different.

well sorry for a ramble here rev. and i'm not trying to detere the thread. mind you also, i dont' know too much about buddhism or the idea of karma or anything, so i can say, buddhism had no inplay with my thoughts that i shared. God Bless you! <><

Charlie V said:

So my father, who died an atheist last year at age 72, is in hell?

If so, then I suppose I will spend eternity in heaven crying for my father, and pleading daily to God for his release from hell.

Heaven sounds like hell to me, as I will be tormented by the knowledge that the father I love is being tormented eternally for disbelieving in a really old book, and instead believing in the accuracy of science.

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When I was a teenager, I accepted the invitation of two Church of Christ ministers to come to our house to talk about their view of Christianity. They informed our family in no uncertain terms that the only true Christians were members of the Churches of Christ, and that everyone else would go to hell.

My father said, "My mother belonged to the United Church of Christ. Are you saying she's in hell right now?"

"That's right," replied one of the ministers.

My dad was stunned by the ministers' certainty and their audacity, and far from drawing him into their church, the remark made it impossible for him to even consider it.

SackLunch said:

Ugh...another "Christianity + whatever" type thread!

You cannot mix Christianity with another belief system, because the outcome is NOT real Christianity. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody comes to the Father but through ME." He made it clear that He is the only way to get to Heaven; there is no other way. The Bible makes it plain and clear that it's a DECISION everyone must make. Will I confess my sins and accept Jesus as my savior?

"Dear Jesus, I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins. I know you died on that cross for my sins. Come into my heart and life Jesus, and make me a new creation in you. Amen"

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Amen SackLunch i totally agree with you.

I definitely haven't made my mind up about this issue, but this conversation has been very enlightening.

We recently lost a dear friend. She was a devout Muslim. We are praying for her soul, at her family's request.

I guess if I had an opinion, I think God will reveal himself to everyone after death ("now we see through a glass, darkly; then we shall see face-to-face"). Most people will enter into His presence with joy and singing, some may require some repentance and/or purification first (purgatory-like maybe?) and possibly some other people will turn away in horror.

I believe we are saved through Jesus, but I don't believe that holding a set of theologically-correct opinions save us or we're all headed downstairs

Joy

Joykins said:

I definitely haven't made my mind up about this issue, but this conversation has been very enlightening.Joy

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That's wonderful Joy and your post shows a lot about you. That's the reason why we have these discussions. It's nice when folks actually sit back and weigh matters with a critical eye taking away what they find of value and leave the rest.

Meow =^..^=