Universalism

ianb321red said:

We don't need to invent a new word.
The word is righteousness - and this is what the double substitution does: we exchange our wicked ways (sin) and receive the righteousness of Christ in return!

Sounds like a bargin to me!!

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Self-righteousness more like.

Bish

ianb321red said:

So this begs this question what is the origin and purpose of universalism? Universalism presents 2 problems for bible believing Christians:

1) It rejects the doctrine of Hell
2) It upholds that non-Christians will be saved through Christ (pluralism)

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1. Stop pretending that you read the bible and I don't
2. There's an important distinction between hoping all may be saved and Universalism, that normally means all will be saved.
3. I'm happy to reject doctines left, right, and centre - they are our attempt to systematize Gid and scripture. Scripture is clear that there is an ultimate alternative to being part of God's kingdom. Call that hell if you want but the label is now so distorted as to be worse than useless IMO. What is less clear is whether anyone will end up in that option.

Without getting in to specific verses, but from a reading of scripture as a whole, there numerous references to the fact the Christ is unique and that salvation is through Him alone. He is The (only) Way, The (only) Truth and The (only) Life.

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Not denying that Jesus is God's means for saving the whole cosmos; and he's done that in principle in his resurrection. New Creation has begun. To say anyone is saved except through Jesus is a nonsense.

You need only read Pauls epistles to establish this.
You need only read The Sermon on the Mount to establish what Jesus taught us about Hell (Gehenna / Tartarus / Sheol / Hades etc)

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The question isn't what he said in the sermon but what people do with it. The sermon is there to face each of us with the reality and nature of the choice, not to give us information about the fate of others.

Christopher Hitchens was still holding on to his atheism on his death bed, hours before he died. I'm not ruling out a change of heart, but it seems unlikely. Is someone with such a strong disbelief/ rejection saved and now with Christ?

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1. The game isn't over till the final resurrection
2. I hope he will be saved. I cannot say anymore than that.

savedbygrace05 said:

Universalism also makes pointless the Cross of Calvary and why Jesus lived, died and rose again!!

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Some versions perhaps.

But not all.

ianb321red said:

We don't need to invent a new word.
The word is righteousness - and this is what the double substitution does: we exchange our wicked ways (sin) and receive the righteousness of Christ in return!

Sounds like a bargin to me!!

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Sounds like gibberish to me, but heh.

ianb321red said:

It also would force people in to Heaven against their own will.
Which is an interesting point.

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Says who?

I hope that all will ultimately choose God's kingdom. If any don't I expect God to respect that.

ianb321red said:

I agree, but Bible believing Christian's believe in a gospel of righteousness and substitutionary atonement. Therefore, I believe that this is reality.

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What the heck is a "gospel of righteousness"

ebia said:

What the heck is a "gospel of righteousness"

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....and you are concerned that I think you don't read The Bible?

Have you ever read Paul's epistle to the Romans and Galations???

Romans 1:17

"For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith."

ebia said:

Says who?

I hope that all will ultimately choose God's kingdom. If any don't I expect God to respect that.

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Say's who? You?
Or God?

ebia said:

Sounds like gibberish to me, but heh.

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So - you are calling Substitutionary atonement "gibberish" then?

So you think that 1 Peter 3:18 is Gibberish - "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God"

And 2 Cor 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

ok - like Savedbygrace05, I'm also bowing out of this thread.
There is no point conversing with someone who has posted 25,500 times on this forum and still hasn't grasped or accepted the basics of the Christian gospel message.

What gospel do you believe in, as most evidently it is not one that is in The Bible...?

Paul writes to the church in Galatia to rebuke them for preaching a different gospel:

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ."

ianb321red said:

Say's who? You?
Or God?

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Um, that was clearly me, wasn't it. It wasn't claiming to speak for God or anyone else.

ianb321red said:

....and you are concerned that I think you don't read The Bible?

Have you ever read Paul's epistle to the Romans and Galations???

Romans 1:17

"For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith."

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And?

I'm perfectly happy with Romans and Galatians.

God's [covenant faithfulness] is revealed in the [events of] the gospel.

I have no idea what anyone could possibly mean by "a gospel of righteousness".

ianb321red said:

So - you are calling Substitutionary atonement "gibberish" then?

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That wasn't what I was referring to

So you think that 1 Peter 3:18 is Gibberish - "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God"

And 2 Cor 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

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Yeh, but what do you think that means? The righteousness of God is his covenant faithfulness.

ianb321red said:

.

What gospel do you believe in,

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Jesus Christ is risen and is Lord

Or, in longer form, the Gospel according to St Luke (or John, or Mark, or Matthew), but I won't type that out in full.

Interesting that so many on this thread take to arguing against others who differ in view or opinion, in order to try and elevate their own view or opinion as truth...

There are many ways to look at many different scriptures. Depending on where you are from, what cultural, experiential, educational, emotional background you come from, you may take different things from different verses.

I find it interesting that so many Scriptures, that we create whole doctrines from, were written as 'mysteries'... maybe we are not supposed to, or never will be able to fully understand them while we are living this part of our lives.

I think if God had wanted us to understand everything, He would have enabled us to..!

So much about even the opening question of this thread can be interpreted in so many different way.
For example, what you see as 'universalism' may be different to how I or another see it. After all, it is a doctrine...

This doctrine / concept itself is built upon our limited understanding of so many other situations, phrases, words that are again, doctrines themselves.

Before anyone gets offended by this, please first look at how the early Scriptures were written, what culture they were written into (which gives insight into how they were written!), what was going on physically in the world at the time (which bares relevance to the approach of the author who's goal was to make a certain people understand) and so on... our understanding is based on our culture and our interpretation.

As well educated as we may be, we make mistakes.
Where mysteries are involved, we can make huge mistakes and assumptions!

Take for example, the use of words such as Heaven, Hell, Salvation, Eternity, Worship, Truth, Redemption... right there you have a list of words that we have coined to fit our modern understanding. Most of these, in the original scriptures were not words that were used, and those that were, were not used in situations that we would use them today.

Be slow to judge others and lean on our own understanding. That's a sure recipe for pride to lead us to fall...

Peace.