Universalism

ianb321red · Apr 5, 2012

ebia said:
Okay Thats good. Now what difference would it make if it turn out that all are included in that?

Mere speculation.
I'm interested in what Jesus said on this matter (passages have already been cited to support my biblically based position).

Please support your position from scripture, otherwise as I say it is unwarranted speculation....

ebia · Apr 5, 2012

ianb321red said:
Mere speculation.

If the quote isn't relevant to the question we are discussing why did you post it?

[/quote]
I'm interested in what Jesus said on this matter (passages have already been cited to support my biblically based position).

Please support your position from scripture, otherwise as I say it is unwarranted speculation....[/QUOTE]
I'm really not at all interested in getting into a verse- matching competition. A few verses that point towards the salvation of all creation jabs been posted - there are more. Posting verses at each other won't resolve the debate.

You can say "all may be saved" is speculation. I'd call it provisional hope. But if it is speculation then "some are definitely not saved" is certainly speculation.

ebia · Apr 5, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
With the attitude that you consistently convey to biblical truth and other Christians, none I guess!!

On the contrary, I take scripture to be reliable and authoratitve.
In what way did the quote concerned address the question of universal salvation? All too often we are so used to reading a comment in the framework we are using that we think it supports the framework, when in fact it might make as good, perhaps better, sense in a different framework.

savedbygrace05 · Apr 5, 2012

ebia said:
All too often we are so used to reading a comment in the framework we are using that we think it supports the framework, when in fact it might make as good, perhaps better, sense in a different framework.

????????????????????

ebia · Apr 5, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
????????????????????

Maybe if you answered the question that immediately preceeded that sentence then what I meant might become clear.

savedbygrace05 · Apr 5, 2012

ebia said:
Maybe if you answered the question that immediately preceeded that sentence then what I meant might become clear.

I have to bow to your superior biblical knowledge and bow out of this particular thread.

ebia · Apr 5, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
I have to bow to your superior biblical knowledge and bow out of this particular thread.

That's a shame.

savedbygrace05 · Apr 6, 2012

ebia said:
That's a shame.

Or maybe not, maybe it is a good way to say "this is pointless and going nowehere..."

ebia · Apr 6, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Or maybe not, maybe it is a good way to say "this is pointless and going nowehere..."

:shrug:

It has as much point as any other thread. Where did you want it to go?

ianb321red · Apr 12, 2012

ebia said:
I'm really not at all interested in getting into a verse- matching competition. A few verses that point towards the salvation of all creation jabs been posted - there are more. Posting verses at each other won't resolve the debate.

Having re-read this thread, I cannot find any references to scripture which support, even tentatively, the doctrine/ denomination of universalism.

But you are correct - quoting verses at each other will not resolve this discussion.

So this begs this question what is the origin and purpose of universalism? Universalism presents 2 problems for bible believing Christians:

1) It rejects the doctrine of Hell
2) It upholds that non-Christians will be saved through Christ (pluralism)

Without getting in to specific verses, but from a reading of scripture as a whole, there numerous references to the fact the Christ is unique and that salvation is through Him alone. He is The (only) Way, The (only) Truth and The (only) Life.

You need only read Pauls epistles to establish this.
You need only read The Sermon on the Mount to establish what Jesus taught us about Hell (Gehenna / Tartarus / Sheol / Hades etc)

So without fiddling around with specific verses (normally taken out of context) and instead reading entire books and understanding the history, setting and context of how they were written, I do not get any indication that all would be saved.

It's a nice idea, and one that I'd love to be true - certainly when I think of family members, BUT I cannot reconcile with my own (albeit infallible) interpretation of scripture.

Christopher Hitchens was still holding on to his atheism on his death bed, hours before he died. I'm not ruling out a change of heart, but it seems unlikely. Is someone with such a strong disbelief/ rejection saved and now with Christ?

savedbygrace05 · Apr 12, 2012

ianb321red said:
Having re-read this thread, I cannot find any references to scripture which support, even tentatively, the doctrine/ denomination of universalism.

But you are correct - quoting verses at each other will not resolve this discussion.

So this begs this question what is the origin and purpose of universalism? Universalism presents 2 problems for bible believing Christians:

1) It rejects the doctrine of Hell
2) It upholds that non-Christians will be saved through Christ (pluralism)

Universalism also makes pointless the Cross of Calvary and why Jesus lived, died and rose again!!

Robban · Apr 12, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Universalism also makes pointless the Cross of Calvary and why Jesus lived, died and rose again!!

Not if the core of the message, NT, is that all shall be raised from the dead to stand before the Throne of judgement.
Them universalism would mean all, great and small.

ianb321red · Apr 12, 2012

Robban said:
Not if the core of the message, NT, is that all shall be raised from the dead to stand before the Throne of judgement.
Them universalism would mean all, great and small.

Universalism isn't a belief that all will be judged.
It's the belief that all will be saved - that's quite a difference!

Robban · Apr 12, 2012

ianb321red said:
Universalism isn't a belief that all will be judged.
It's the belief that all will be saved - that's quite a difference!

OK, I get what you mean.
Put that way, it might well be a hope,
But, honestly it can only happen if we repent of our wicked ways,
so that wickedness is no more.
So why not invent a new word, like, universaldom?

ianb321red · Apr 12, 2012

Robban said:
OK, I get what you mean.
Put that way, it might well be a hope,
But, honestly it can only happen if we repent of our wicked ways,
so that wickedness is no more.
So why not invent a new word, like, universaldom?

We don't need to invent a new word.
The word is righteousness - and this is what the double substitution does: we exchange our wicked ways (sin) and receive the righteousness of Christ in return!

Sounds like a bargin to me!!

Robban · Apr 12, 2012

ianb321red said:
We don't need to invent a new word.
The word is righteousness - and this is what the double substitution does: we exchange our wicked ways (sin) and receive the righteousness of Christ in return!

Sounds like a bargin to me!!

Sounds like a con to me.

ianb321red · Apr 12, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
Universalism also makes pointless the Cross of Calvary and why Jesus lived, died and rose again!!

It also would force people in to Heaven against their own will.
Which is an interesting point.

The problem with Universalism is not only that it ignores that plain teaching on Hell, but furthermore it removes choice about whether people spend eternity with God.

It's all very well saying that people hold on to a hope that we all get to heaven , but why should people be forced there against their own will?

It's very clear, again from scripture that judgement in fact happens here on earth and indeed during your lifetime.

To quote John Stott , our eternal destiny is "settled in life, sealed at death and stated on the day of judgement"

ianb321red · Apr 12, 2012

Robban said:
Sounds like a con to me.

Because...?

Robban · Apr 12, 2012

ianb321red said:
Because...?

Because fantasy is,-clinging to an idea to avoid reality.
Faith is,-having the courage to face reality.

ianb321red · Apr 12, 2012

Robban said:
Because fantasy is,-clinging to an idea to avoid reality.
Faith is,-having the courage to face reality.

I agree, but Bible believing Christian's believe in a gospel of righteousness and substitutionary atonement. Therefore, I believe that this is reality.

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