Universalism

lismore · Mar 29, 2012

ebia said:
Has no- one suggested that to you before?

Not really. But I would be interested to study the references you have in mind. Thanks!

Robban · Mar 29, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
OK, let's try Rev 20;

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No matter which way you slice it, Hell is real, and cannot simply be explained away.

What if we all have our names in the book of life?
What if we do not live out who we are?
What if we are living someone else,s roll?
There will be some explaining to do.
Once one great righteous man was anxious about his standing before the
Heavenly Tribunal.
His followers could not understand why,
he told them, if they ask me'
"Why were you not like Abraham?"
"I will laugh in their face, and say since when did you give me the generous heart of Abraham?"
"If they ask me, why were you not like Moses, I will say, since when did you give me the gifts Moses had?"
"No, I,m not anxious for those kind of questions,
what I am anxious about is if they ask me,Why were you not you?
Maybe he wanted to give his followers something to think about.

Johnnz · Mar 29, 2012

Col 1:16-20 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. NIV

Any discussion on this topic must include these verses - just what does 'all things' omit?

John
NZ

Robban · Mar 29, 2012

Just wanted to continue a little on post #62.
If you are not you, and I am not I, then who are we?
If nothing just happens, then we are all born at a certain time with a purpose, by reaching our individual purpose,and becoming who we were intended to be, we are fulfilling our purpose.
If however I choose not be who I am intended to be, but want to be someone else, then I will not be found in any book, because in actual fact I never was, I have denied myself.

Bish bash bosh · Mar 29, 2012

ianb321red said:
A general question to any Christian.

Do you believe Jesus told the truth or was a liar?

Neither, he had an opinion, dare I suggest a sincere one but a subjective opinion none the less.

Bish

Robban · Mar 29, 2012

Johnnz said:
Col 1:16-20 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. NIV

Any discussion on this topic must include these verses - just what does 'all things' omit?

John
NZ

You bet Johnny,
All things,
the One God,
there is nowhere He is not,
no seperate entity outside of Him.
God,s Oneness.

savedbygrace05 · Mar 30, 2012

Robban said:
You bet Johnny,
All things,
the One God,
there is nowhere He is not,
no seperate entity outside of Him.
God,s Oneness.

And Trinitarian

savedbygrace05 · Mar 30, 2012

Robban said:
What if...

A comprehensive reading and understanding of the whole bible, both Old and New Testaments deals with all the 'what ifs'. God has spoken, simply believe

ebia · Mar 30, 2012

savedbygrace05 said:
A comprehensive reading and understanding of the whole bible, both Old and New Testaments deals with all the 'what ifs'.

I couldn't agree less.

non-religious · Mar 30, 2012

[ebia]I couldn't agree less.

Nor I.

Johnnz · Mar 30, 2012

Here is another interesting verse.

1 Tim 4:9-10 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. NIV

John
NZ

Johnnz · Mar 30, 2012

non-religious said:
I have asked others this question before, so if you don't mind, I'll ask you.

How would you enjoy the renewed earth and all its wonders, whilst there are literally billions of people, some maybe even known to you, suffering inextricably in pain for ever?

If one thinks about people starving in parts of Africa, or children being abused etc... here on earth. We can intervene, we can mobilise politically, economically etc... We still live our lives and have enjoyment, but we know and appreciate what we have and how we can make some kind of difference. When on the new earth, that will not be possible. So will we simply ignore it? Will God remove any trace of it from our consciousness?

If the latter is true, then does that mean we're no longer able to think independently? There are so many questions. I'm not asking you to answer them all btw

Just interested in your thoughts

Sorry, I have just seen your post.

As a general comment all I can say can really say are two things:

a) Basically, we just don't know about how that will work out. That does not negate belief, just another issue for the future. But from there:

b) I believe that God's final justice will be perfect and seen to be perfect by everyone, whatever that might be in each case.

This is not mere 'pie in the sky when I die' stuff either. Materialism gives no final justice - we die ie, "poof", then its all over, and things are as they are when we go. No comfort or resolution there.

John
NZ

ianb321red · Mar 31, 2012

A related question to this topic would be:

If everyone goes to heaven regardless of belief or disbelief, then what is the point of Christianity?

Furthermore, when we as Christians are faced with questions or uncertainty, then really we should look to Christ.
What did Jesus say or teach us on this subject?

So I repeat, did Jesus teach that all will be saved regardless of their belief?

Johnnz · Mar 31, 2012

Good question.

I am not a universalist. But there are some scriptures that don't fit that readily into some traditional views. Just what will actually eventuate we may not know fully until after this life. That there are two very different outcomes in quite clear from the Scriptures, but just what that will entail may be open to some conjecture.

John
NZ

Genersis · Mar 31, 2012

ianb321red said:
A related question to this topic would be:

If everyone goes to heaven regardless of belief or disbelief, then what is the point of Christianity?
...

An instruction book is useful, regardless of if everyone follows, or even HAS to follow it.
(Does that make sense?:o)

ebia · Mar 31, 2012

ianb321red said:
A related question to this topic would be:

If everyone goes to heaven regardless of belief or disbelief, then what is the point of Christianity?

When someone needs to ask that I wonder what they think the point of Christianity is.

Furthermore, when we as Christians are faced with questions or uncertainty, then really we should look to Christ.
What did Jesus say or teach us on this subject?

It's not a question he was trying to answer.

So I repeat, did Jesus teach that all will be saved regardless of their belief?

He didn't say either way.

Which is part of the reason that it's historically orthodox to hope that all may be saved, but hetrodox to be certain that all will.

Judy02 · Apr 1, 2012

Sometimes, I'd like to and wish Universalism was true

But no, I don't really believe it...

lismore · Apr 1, 2012

There is universalism in the sense of John 3:16. The whosoever can come to Jesus. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can come.
It's a universal invitation. There's a place for you, whoever you are.

But John 3:18

whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son.

Judy02 · Apr 1, 2012

lismore said:
There is universalism in the sense of John 3:16. The whosoever can come to Jesus. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can come.
It's a universal invitation. There's a place for you, whoever you are.

But John 3:18

whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son.

Yes, I believe that ^ I was under the impression that wasn't the type of "Universalism" that the OP was referring to.

savedbygrace05 · Apr 1, 2012

Judy02 said:
Yes, I believe that ^ I was under the impression that wasn't the type of "Universalism" that the OP was referring to.

Universalism

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