Universalism

Nadiine · Jul 22, 2009

Originally Posted by preistsplace

Nadine said:

the percentage of his creation destined for eternal flames(figurative or literal) is somewhere between 90 and 98 percent. We did not exist before but were created with the foreknowledge that most all of us would suffer eternally,yet the bible clearly says that "his mercies are over all of his works"

And what about choice?? God ALSO created man with a purpose and
responsibility to obey Him and glorify Him as God
(Sovereign Creator/Saviour/Lawgiver).

[**which by the way is the very reason why EVERY knee will bow
and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD**
That is mandatory becuz we are created to glorify the King of Kings.

They will be confessing what they know is a fact before their own
eyes which they were created to do - a fact they rejected in their lifetime
and refused to acknowledge even tho God had shown it to them (Rom. 1:18-32) ]

Why do the followers of God obey Him and recieve His atoning Salvation
while others will not?
As I stated earlier, I made that decision to recieve His Salvation -
and everyone else is JUST AS responsible to do the same.
What gives them the opportunity to rebel and get away with it while
others obey and sacrifice this life for the next??...

See Romans 18-32 in the steps to reprobation:

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God
nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their
foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.

When man rebels to go his own way and be his own moral agent and
rejects the greatest, most important GIFT (via Grace) that was
given, who's fault is that? God's?
We see from Romans that it's refusing to glorify God and submit
that causes people to become more depraved - that rebellion causes
further blindness and spiritual harm while it dulls the conscience
to God's conviction of sin that they're receiving from Him.
(Jn 16).
IT'S A CHOICE THEY MAKE. Just like it's a choice believers make to
heed God's voice calling us to repentance. We all have this choice
to make.

God draws EVERYONE TO HIMSELF thru-out their lives. They have
ample opportunity to turn becuz God is loving and righteous to
provide them with truth.

Romans 1 tells us that even tho God gives them truth, they
suppress it by their own will, and due to their choice,
God 'turns them over' eventually to their own CHOSEN depravity,
to do what is evil.

The same God who can restrain Himself from stopping an adult
from sexually violating an innocent little 5 year old girl, or
burying a harmless little girl alive in the dirt, CAN ALSO have
the stomach to allow people choice to submit or rebel and
ultimately be sent to Gehenna; separated from God - just as
they chose to be separated from God in this lifetime.

The issue is dying in unrepented sin THAT IS NOT REMOVED
by the atoning blood of Christ; it CANNOT be released back into
the regenerated world when Christ does away with all sin.

This is NOT about what we like & dislike - it's about what God
established and said we must do, or we will die.
WE ARE PRE-WARNED over and over.

John 16, God even sends His Spirit here to convict the world
of their sin and of their judgment to come!
Will they listen??

John 16:8
for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go,
I will send Him to you.
8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin
and righteousness and judgment;
9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and
you no longer see Me;
11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

Tissue said:
I think you mean to say 'they base their beliefs on feeling and emotion'. We certainly don't base truth on feeling and emotion, as we are not the arbiters, creators, or sustainers of truth (nor do we claim to be).

If you did mean to say 'they base their beliefs on feeling and emotion', I don't have a problem with that, as long as it is also recognized that there are reasons and logical arguments behind our position as well.

If you are saying that we have only taken this stance as a result of a frivolous ecstasy, then you are incorrect. I think my posts that have taken a look at the philosophy of the matter are sufficient enough refutations of this idea.

If you are saying that we are letting emotion cloud our judgment, I'm not sure you're in a proper position to make that call. Feeling and emotion enter in to our beliefs all the time. To remove them entirely would be to operate as mathematical automatons.

An observation: Usually the argument that "feelings and emotion" have no place in our beliefs come from the same camps who, in the midst of discussions on God's Supreme Will, object with "We're not robots!"

.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine said:
If they want to consider God's plan
monstrous and evil, then it would be on them if they
view it that way.

God's plan is absolutely divine and I don't consider it monstrous and evil at all. A challenge at times, but not monstrous and evil.

What I do reject is not God's plan, but rather certain perspectives on God's plan. I can't even say that the perspectives I reject are "monstrous and evil" either, but rather simply misguided.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

CaDan said:
Let me get this straight.

Your fear is that people will hear the Gospel and be convinced "Good, Jesus will take care of me."

This is a problem exactly how? How is this not having faith in Jesus Christ?

Amen.

The belief that one can "lose their salvation" is itself flawed, even from a Partialist perspective, and therefore not a strong foundation for dealing with the prospect of universal redemption. I suspect that the fear of a loss of salvation is part of the reason why many fear embracing universal redemption. It seems they feel their salvation rests on what they believe (as opposed to being Christ's accomplishment on their behalf).

.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

preistsplace said:
"his mercies are over all of his works"

Nadiine · Jul 22, 2009

Originally Posted by preistsplace

"his mercies are over all of his works"

Well then you can deny what scripture says to put God
in your boxes so that He becomes what you decide you
want Him to be; I won't.

I'd also like to ask where His "mercy" was when He struck
Anannias and Saphira dead on the spot for lying to
the Holy Spirit in Acts?

The problem again is where people are making their own
claims & demands on God's attributes without taking
the accounts of His actions into consideration to form
doctrines & theologies based on personal preferences
and opinions, rather than on facts we're given.

Here's what God says about mercy:
(for the 2nd time):

James 2:13
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy;
mercy triumphs over judgment.

Hebrews 10:27-29
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE
WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on
the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think
he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God,
and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which
he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

(this describes those who reject Christ's blood atonement over them
and insult God's Spirit of grace - offering them so great a salvation.
They deserve a WORSE punishment than those who set aside
the Law. Serious stuff to reject God's grace in the time of grace
that God has given us patiently.

Romans 9 spells it out:
13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY,
AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs,
but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP,
TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

And we can add the Parable of the unmerciful servant
from Matt. 18 removing mercy for the unmerciful.
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Matt 18:21-35;;

Again, these show us that people are making up their own
theologies about God and His attributes based upon personal
preferences that they want to be true.
In order to do that, scripture must be rejected or ignored in
the process.

God having mercy is not some cookie cutter generic mercy
where He has to wink at all sin and pat everybody on the back-
God is the same today as He was in the OT - He doesn't change.

Unfortunately, people change God all the time.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine, were still waiting for your direct response to posts #961,#1098, and the yes or no question that has been repeatedly asked you, most recently in post #1053.

I dont think that anything further that you have to say on this subject can be taken very seriously because your statements show that you ignore some clear scriptures that have been shared here which speak to the contrary.

.

preistsplace · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine said:
Nadiine said:

Again this is all about your emotions and feeling of dislike.

Click to expand...

I have over the course of this thread quoted several scriptures , but perhaps it is more convenient for you to overlook them....continuing......

Let me start out by saying this, I have the SAME opportunity
in my life to accept or reject God's truth just like the next
person has.

Click to expand...

You have the same opportunity as someone who is born in Communist China to Buddhist parents .

What makes Believers different from Non???
WE ACCEPTED! God has clearly said that we will reap what
we sow! He will not be mocked. Sow to the flesh, reap
corruption. Sow to the Spirit, reap LIFE.

Click to expand...

the difference is that God chose to reveal himself to you

Anyways, I dislike and HATE the amount of animals God has allowed
to be tortured, mistreated, abused, mutilated for science and killed -
including the entire sacrificial system....

Click to expand...

off topic

Your analysis then is that if people don't end up in heaven,
then God shouldn't have created them at all? If so,
then the bottom line of your reasoning probly goes something like this:

God is love, therefore God HAS to create us to be happy forever,
or else He's evil.

Click to expand...

what would you think of a Mother who gave birth to her children so that she could beat them everyday for making the wrong decisions?

If so, it's flawed due to this faulty idealism of His attribute of Love.
HE IS LOVE - but in that Love, He allows evil and He even blinds
people to the truth if they harden to it, as we saw He did with
Pharaoh, and those He spoke parables to in the gospel accounts.

Click to expand...

God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh remember......
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&verse=21&version=49&context=verse

Luke 10:21
At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said,
"I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent
and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father,
for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Matthew 13:13
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing
they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

Veiled truth

Click to expand...

we are in agreement here that he shows the truth to who he wishes think about this in terms of your salvation and your eternal destiny.

Yes God is Merciful too. But in applying mercy to God, people
[purposely seem to] bypass the verses which define that mercy.
He is NOT merciful with all - it tells you that in 3 separate places.
4 actually! Read the parable of the unforgiving servant:
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Matt 18:21-35;;

Click to expand...

Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Until they should pay the debt...remedial punishment....or at least finite punishment

Nadiine · Jul 22, 2009

I have over the course of this thread quoted several scriptures , but perhaps it is more convenient for you to overlook them....continuing......

I haven't once rejected what the verse says, I have
rejected the SPIN on the verses as to what they're
being said to mean.

When I quote verses that give added instruction or
insight to your verses, we're supposed to come to
a proper understanding of all the combined verses
using all of scripture.
Not taking 1 verse, ripping it out of context, OR
running with it to make it mean what we think it does
or should be while other verses contradict our view.

How many false religions or cults use pieces of the Bible
to create new religions? Anyone can take verses and make
them mean what they want - but we have a harder time
doing that if we take ALL the verses together to form truth
with.

Nadiine · Jul 22, 2009

chaela said:
"Have you not read ... ?"

John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

"He" -- not "It" -- was with God in the beginning.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The Bible is God-breathed. The Word is God. See the difference?

The Bible is NOT God. I no more worship the Bible than I would worship a statue. That's idolatry.

Even Jesus made the distinction when He said,

John 5:39-40 ~ "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life."

e

.

Your error is in claiming that we claim the Bible "IS GOD".
No one claims that... so I have no clue why you continue on
this path?
:o

The Bible contains words FROM God; penned thru disciples
and prophets and those who eyewitnessed God's actions/
interactions.
Now if you want to deny that, go ahead - it only makes your
bible foundationless to use for truth about Him....

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine said:
I haven't once rejected what the verse says, I have rejected the SPIN on the verses as to what they're
being said to mean.

I can only speculate but it appears to me that you simply prefer your own spin on the verses.

.

CaDan · Jul 22, 2009

It's all spin. And turtles all the way down.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine said:
Your error is in claiming that we claim the Bible "IS GOD".

You (and others) have been referring to the Bible as "the Word of God". Scripture is clear that "the Word of God" is not the Bible. It's the Lord Himself:

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in
the beginning.

The Word is God.
The bible is Scripture.
If one says that the Bible = "The Word", and Scripture says that "The Word" = God, then those who say that the bible is the Word of God are saying that the bible is God.

The Bible contains words FROM God; penned thru disciples
and prophets and those who eyewitnessed God's actions/
interactions.

Amen - all scripture is God-breathed, etc., as I've already pointed out previously.

Now if you want to deny that, go ahead - it only makes your
bible foundationless to use for truth about Him....

Of course you know I don't deny it; the post your above responses are pertaining to even included 2 Timothy 3:16-17. So I don't know where you're getting that I would want to deny this particular point. Did you not read the entire post?

Nadiine · Jul 22, 2009

chaela said:
You (and others) have been referring to the Bible as "the Word of God". Scripture is clear that "the Word of God" is not the Bible. It's the Lord Himself:

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word

was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in
the beginning.

The Word is God.
The bible is Scripture.
If one says that the Bible = "The Word", and Scripture says that "The Word" = God, then those who say that the bible is the Word of God are saying that the bible is God.

Amen - all scripture is God-breathed, etc., as I've already pointed out previously.

Of course you know I don't deny it; the post your above responses are pertaining to even included 2 Timothy 3:16-17. So I don't know where you're getting that I would want to deny this particular point. Did you not read the entire post?

The Bible contains God's words to man -
It is not only a 'handbook' as to how to live for Him,
but it gives insight into who He is, and the prophets
proclaimed His prophecies given to them directly.

We either believe them as the eyewitnesses or we do not.

If not, then we're left to make up our own beliefs and
slap a Christian title on them.
The very gospel of Christ is taught there in which salvation
is found.... it's either true or it's false.

If false, then why would anyone want to be a Christian?
I wouldn't!

And I"m not going to sit here and go into a whole discussion
on the validity of the Bible with you.
Since this is a Christian only section, I EXPECT that those
who discuss here already accept scripture as truth of God.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine said:
The Bible contains God's words to man -
It is not only a 'handbook' as to how to live for Him,
but it gives insight into who He is, and the prophets
proclaimed His prophecies given to them directly.

We either believe them as the eyewitnesses or we do not.

If not, then we're left to make up our own beliefs and
slap a Christian title on them.
The very gospel of Christ is taught there in which salvation
is found.... it's either true or it's false.

If false, then why would anyone want to be a Christian?
I wouldn't!

And I"m not going to sit here and go into a whole discussion
on the validity of the Bible with you.
Since this is a Christian only section, I EXPECT that those
who discuss here already accept scripture as truth of God.

I'm not sure how any of this addresses my point. No one here is arguing that Scripture isn't the truth of God, or isn't valid. It appears you're still busy scolding the Straw Man, while I'm over here waiting for you to engage in the discussion at hand.

.

Rajni · Jul 22, 2009

red77 said:
Nadiine, what spin is being applied in these verses exactly? Please explain just what it is that makes these verses 'out of context' if they can't be read for what so clearly seem to say.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."

He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

The Lord sustains all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to Thee, and Thou dost give them their food in due time. Thou dost open Thy hand, and dost satisfy the desire of every living thing.

And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain [Mount Zion]...and on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations. He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces.

For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.

Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.

And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Nadiine · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine, what spin is being applied in these verses exactly? Please explain just what it is that makes these verses 'out of context' if they can't be read for what so clearly seem to say

I have limited time online right now,
but I'll tell you one specific,
The use of "mercy" slung around as if mercy HAS to mean that
God lets just everybody into heaven despite the commands and
warnings that one MUST be born again to enter.

Mercy is ALSO used in punishment for the guilty, we see it practiced
here every day in our justice system. We don't just let pedophiles
free becuz a judge is feeling "merciful" that day.
A judge CAN however lighten the penalty for the convicted criminal
when taking issues into consideration that warrent lenience.

Instead, it's used solely to "prove" salvation is granted to everyone just becuz God is "merciful".... again, it says He is not merciful to everyone
for different reasons He discerns in their actions/motives.
And I don't see anywhere where it directly states that mercy
only means 'granting salvation' to every soul that breathes.

That's just the problem what you say above "so clearly SEEM to
say". They aren't clearly saying something when it's contradicted
directly by OTHER verses.
Or it's found in a nonrelated context; pointing to some other subject
completely.. etc.
They stop being so clear when something else refutes our
original understanding elsewhere.
This is why we're told to rightly divide the word of God, we don't just
read verses and form theologies without comparing it with the
rest.

I hope that better explains it?

CaDan · Jul 22, 2009

Nadiine said:
I have limited time online right now,
but I'll tell you one specific,
The use of "mercy" slung around as if mercy HAS to mean that
God lets just everybody into heaven despite the commands and
warnings that one MUST be born again to enter.

Mercy is ALSO used in punishment for the guilty, we see it practiced
here every day in our justice system. We don't just let pedophiles
free becuz a judge is feeling "merciful" that day.
A judge CAN however lighten the penalty for the convicted criminal
when taking issues into consideration that warrent lenience.

Instead, it's used solely to "prove" salvation is granted to everyone just becuz God is "merciful".... again, it says He is not merciful to everyone
for different reasons He discerns in their actions/motives.
And I don't see anywhere where it directly states that mercy
only means 'granting salvation' to every soul that breathes.

That's just the problem what you say above "so clearly SEEM to
say". They aren't clearly saying something when it's contradicted
directly by OTHER verses.
Or it's found in a nonrelated context; pointing to some other subject
completely.. etc.
They stop being so clear when something else refutes our
original understanding elsewhere.
This is why we're told to rightly divide the word of God, we don't just
read verses and form theologies without comparing it with the
rest.

I hope that better explains it?

No.

Not unless you are advocating Dante's circles of hell.

CaDan · Jul 22, 2009

We can circle around it, but it comes down to the desire of folks to see "bad" people "punished."

The problem with this, though, is that none are righteous. None. Zero. Zip.

If Christ does not break the discipline and punish paradigm of tribal religion, then what is the point of this whole exercise?

preistsplace · Jul 23, 2009

Nadiine said:
**One major flaw with people's ideal of Mercy, is that they ONLY
attribute it to God pardoning people's evil and letting them into
heaven despite their rejection of Christ.
What they SHOULD be doing is seeing that people are guilty before
God for the sins they kept (by refusing removal thru Christs blood)
and GOD CAN BE MERCIFUL IN HIS PENALTY PHASE FOR THEIR ETERNAL
SENTENCING.
This is what judges do with the guilty - a man is found guilty, but he
looks at other aspects in order to determine lenience IN THE PUNISHMENT
phase.
God can and will be merciful in His sentencing, based on their works and motives.
They will not suffer as much due to His love and mercy!

... cont. in next post...

here we have the confirmation of Dante's circles of hell or something very similar

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