craig_on_fire said:
Hey! Not sure if this belongs here! I hope I can get some kind of answer though.
I'm currently researching a lot about Universalism, and I was wondering if there were any universalists who would mind commenting on 2 Thessalonians 1.8-9? I must admit it has me stumped at the moment.
Hope this is ok.
Thanks,
Craig
Craig,
I'm sure you came questioning with the best of intentions. That being said, you've come to us with a fairly obvious prooftext and then asked us to reflect on it. I offer another option to those who have posted thus far, and have barely touched the 2 Thessalonians text (in my opinion, of course, and no offense to any previous posters - we all get sidetracked).
We need more context! When I checked the text you indicated, immediately I was struck by two things: it begins in the middle of a sentence, and ends with a comma. That raises the "something stinks" flag when I study scriptural reference supplied by other people.
So I expanded my reading, and think, at the
minimum, that verses 1-12 should be looked at in reference to those two verses, and at best, the whole of the letter.
Here it is, 2 Thessalonians 1:1-12 (NRSV):
[BIBLE]
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of everyone of you for one another is increasing.
4 Therefore we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith during all your persecutions and the afflictions that you are enduring.
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, and is intended to make you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering.
6 For it is indeed just of God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to the afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he comes to be glorified by his saints and to be marveled at on that day among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
11 To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith,
12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.[/BIBLE]
When you pull the study microscope back to this range, possible meanings of the text come a bit more easily. In this context, at the opening of the letter, Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy greet the church in Thessaly and commend them for remaining strong in the face of persecution - which was not an unlikely event, given the time at which this letter was written. I doubt very seriously that Paul had anything to say here about universal vs. individual salvation. It sounds to me like a pastor telling his flock that the wolves that persecute them will be punished by God. To widen that circle of punishment to anyone else is putting words into Paul's mouth. To say that given what Paul says in this passage may lead us to believe that those who persecute us will be punished, especially those
persecuters who do not know God or the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So, to answer your question, I don't think this passage has anything at all to say about universalism, nor about the status of those who live outside of knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think it pertains solely to those people (whoever they were) that persecuted the church in Thessaly in the first half-century (possibly even a shorter amount of time) after the resurrection.
Prooftexting is dangerous, and leads to the kinds of conflict we see on this board every day. In all cases of scriptural reference, take it in the context in which it was written. Otherwise, you can squeeze scripture into whatever shape you want it, and to back any side you choose. All of it is irresponsible Bible scholarship. Also just my opinion.
Also, the passages from Revelations pointed to so far in this thread - when it's a single or a double, it's likely to be a prooftext. I'll leave that to you to figure out, but at the very least take in the whole chapter, at the most, take the whole book. And when it comes to Revelations ... tread lightly. To prooftext from a book of metaphor, allegory and imagery is like trimming the fuse on a stick of dynamite to a quarter-inch, lighting it, and using it as a candle. Just not a good idea.
Hope this helps.