sovereigngrace
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Thanks David.
The text clearly states that it happens "on that day".
That day being when he appears in a flame of fire taking vengeance on those who know not God.
Its his sudden appearing that destroys the man of lawlessness.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
How can that not be the same twinkling of an eye moment?
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.
Thanks David.
The text clearly states that it happens "on that day".
That day being when he appears in a flame of fire taking vengeance on those who know not God.
Its his sudden appearing that destroys the man of lawlessness.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
How can that not be the same twinkling of an eye moment?
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.
There is a separation of people though. Not all people of all time can be lumped into the same pot. Matthew 25:31-46 are only the house of Jacob and they are called out from all Nations. They are also only living and not dead people.It mentions judgment, but does not mention anyone actually being judged at that time. I believe the context indicates that the ones on the thrones are given authority during that time, which is why in verse 6 it says "they shall be priests of God and of Christ". But, there is no description of them (or of God) actually judging anyone at that time (at the beginning of the thousand years).
Also, Matthew 25:31-46 portrays all people being judged at the same time as well. Why would God want to judge people at more than one time, anyway? Have you thought about that?
Some in their theology and eschatology have already taken upon themselves to sit in judgment and condemn many to the Lake of Fire. What is pre-judging still in a sinfilled fleshly body entail? John states they were granted a 1000 year reign with Christ on earth. Prejudice says the 1000 year rule does not even happen.What glasses would you propose the following by me is being examined through? I don't see me examining these through any glasses, Premil or Amil. I just see me trying to make sense out of the texts involved and what it all might add up to. If I'm correct about any of what I submit below, how can Amils still be correct that the the GWTJ is something that takes place at the 2nd coming, and that the thousand years are still meaning in this age, not the next age like Premils propose?
When it comes to the Bible and what is written throughout, I don't believe in coincidences myself. Perhaps others might, but I don't. To illustrate what I'm meaning here, if one does an exact phrase search in the KJV for 'and judgment was given', a phrase found in Revelation 20:4, that exact English rendered phrase is found in only 2 passages total, and here are the passages.
Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Someone is clearly trying to tell us something here, though some might chalk this up as a mere coincedence, thus the passages are not connected in any way whatsoever.
If we were to combine both passages into one, like such, this is what we end up with. But before we do that we need to add Daniel 7:21 first, since Daniel 7:22 is obviously meaning chronologically after verse 21.
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
If we then combine everything together, it might look like such.
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High. and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Unless one is a Preterist with an obvious misunderstanding of the timing of events involving any of the above, no one else should be applying the ending of Daniel 7:21 any other place besides in the end of this age at the 2nd coming. That is where and what ends the war between the little horn and the saints, the 2nd coming. That obviously means that the coming in Daniel 7:22 by the Ancient of days is meaning the 2nd coming. Some might argue that Daniel 7:13 shows that the Ancient of days is meaning the Father though, not Christ( I don't disagree that it does), so that proves it is wrong to apply the coming in Daniel 7:22 to that of the 2nd coming.
But, if we were to compare something in Daniel 7 with something in the gospel accounts and something in Revelation, no one should argue that the latter 2 are not meaning Christ.
Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Compared with----
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Clearly, Daniel 7:9 involves judgment and that it indicates the Ancient of days did sit. And that John 5:22 indicates that the Father has committed all judgment unto the Son. Therefore, the Ancient of days meant in Daniel 7:9 can't be meaning the Father, but is instead meaning Christ. If it is not required that the Ancient of days has to be meaning the Father in Daniel 7:9, that indicates that the same can be true of the Ancient of days mentioned in Daniel 7:22, that that is not meaning the Father either, but is meaning Christ and the 2nd coming, therefore giving us the correct timing of the thousand years, that they are post the 2nd coming, and not prior to the 2nd coming like Amils insist.
In the twinkling of an eye only has to do with being changed. There is not a single verse in all of the NT where it ever says other events happen in this same twinkling of an eye. That is an invention of Amil, and not something that the Bible supports.
How can Daniel 7 be the days prior to the birth and life of Jesus Christ?What you insist upon actually reinforces Amil.
Daniel 7:21-22: “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”
Amillennialists normally relate Daniel 7:21-22 to the persecution of the Roman Empire on the early church and the widespread martyrdom that attended that. They correlate that with Revelation 20 and the depicted victory that marks those who die in Christ during this current era. Amillennialists believe Revelation 20 starts at the first resurrection and shows an ongoing period of victory for the saints over sin, death, the beast and Satan. The saints that survived this awful persecution continued to reign in supernatural power as the kingdom of God invaded the nations. The Gospel could not be stopped. The fire of Revival spread from nation to nation as the Church implemented the great commission. Despite the unprecedented opposition, the heathen Gentile world began to embrace the truth in their millions. As kings and priests the Church carried authority. Revelation 20 depicts even the dead in Christ reign in power and victory. They are shown to possess the kingdom of God and exercise judgement over the kingdom of darkness.
The word "came" in Daniel 7:22 meta' (Aramaic) (met-aw'); or metah (Aramaic) (met-aw') means to arrive, extend or happen. There is nothing in its usage or context that require a literal presence. Words can be used for a literal or spiritual manifestation of God.
If the lawless one is not revealed until after the Second Coming, then the lawless one will have had no authority. How can many say this lawless one is revealed prior to the Second Coming? Any control of the lawless one happens in that same twinkling of an eye event.Thanks David.
The text clearly states that it happens "on that day".
That day being when he appears in a flame of fire taking vengeance on those who know not God.
Its his sudden appearing that destroys the man of lawlessness.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
How can that not be the same twinkling of an eye moment?
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.
If the lawless one is not revealed until after the Second Coming, then the lawless one will have had no authority. How can many say this lawless one is revealed prior to the Second Coming? Any control of the lawless one happens in that same twinkling of an eye event.
How can Daniel 7 be the days prior to the birth and life of Jesus Christ?
Where the Greeks the lion beast? Was Rome the bear? Who was the Leopard?
I am not denying that an eternal kingdom called Paradise was physically established at the Cross. You claim it is only spiritual in nature. I claim the souls already have their permanent physical incorruptible bodies. You deny that.
Each day Paradise grows, and each day more potential Paradise dwellers are born. This is not the great millennium set aside as Holy unto God. Holy means without sin, and the punishment of sin and death given to Adam. Paradise is not that Holy period set aside either. Paradise is the physical manifestation of an eternal Temple, that will one day come down as the New Jerusalem. Paradise is not 1000 years on earth, which is a time period. 1000 years is not a physical location, Paradise is.
Is the lawless one revealed after the Second Coming according to the post I quoted?Can't speak for others, but I'm unable to make heads or tales as to what you are arguing for or against here? Maybe if you tried explaining it a different way, maybe then I could maybe make sense out of what you are arguing for or against?
Is the lawless one revealed after the Second Coming ?
The bible teaches us in various passages that every human who has every lived and died will one day be resurrected. But the bible also teaches it will not all happen at the same moment in time. The first resurrection (in time, not in title) will be the dead in Christ before the 70th week. Then at the end of the 70th week will be another resurrection for the Old Testament saints and those who were beheaded during the week. Finally, a thousand years later, hell will give up her dead and the damned will be judged.Hi,
The bible says there will be a Universal Resurrection of the dead and living when Jesus returns.
Can someone please explain how it works.
Is it Jesus who will resurrect everyone at His Second Coming?
And how come it says a 1000 year period?
Is that the New Heaven/Earth (remade Universe)?
And does that happen after the Universal Resurrection?
Thank you for any clarification!
The bible teaches us in various passages that every human who has every lived and died will one day be resurrected. But the bible also teaches it will not all happen at the same moment in time. The first resurrection (in time, not in title) will be the dead in Christ before the 70th week. Then at the end of the 70th week will be another resurrection for the Old Testament saints and those who were beheaded during the week. Finally, a thousand years later, hell will give up her dead and the damned will be judged.
Like I said not revealed until the Second Coming. It is right there:No. He is destroyed by his appearing at his second coming.
2Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
The appearing of Jesus coming will destroy the revealing of satans little season activity in all power and deception which is centered around the man of lawlessness.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Like I said not revealed until the Second Coming. It is right there:
Then that lawless one will be revealed.
Hi Lamad , iamjeff.
You didnt quote any scripture to back up your claims of the resurrection of all not happening at the same moment in time.
How do you deal with 2 Thess 1 that states it occuring on the same day?
How do you deal with Jesus teaching in Jn 5 ? At a particular hour all in the tombs will hear his voice and some will come forth to damnation while others at that hour will come forth to glory?
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
I accept that the Second Coming incorporates many events. The 42 months of this "revealing" is an interruption to; not a necessary component of the Second Coming.So you believe he appears and is brought to an end at the Lords appearing....is that right?
2Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
How do you deal with Rev. 20 that shows 1000 years between resurrections - and 1 Thes. 4 that shows the resurrection of the dead in Christ comes first?
When there is an apparent disagreement in scripture, as we see in John 5 versus Rev. 20, one must be very careful to form a doctrine. Many things must be considered.Hi.
I deal will them through the scriptures I have already presented to you.
Jn 5 in dealing with Rev 20 and 2Thess 1 in dealing with 1Thess 4.
I propose that what Jesus said in Jn 5 will be no different to what he said in Rev 20. Same goes for Paul in 1 and 2 Thess.
If your really interested I will explain more.
God bless.
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