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No I'm not leading anyone astray with my question. I'm just trying to see if you even belong in this forum. So far you're coming up short. If you don't know the answer just say so.
How does a believer in UR deal with the passage I quoted? It seems pretty straightforward to me, God contradicts UR, so what they believe is their own philosophy, the imaginings of their own mind and not what has been revealed to us.
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I believe this false idea comes from admirable compassion towards the lost, but it simply is not the way things are.
He says "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven", not "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven at first", some people will not enter the kingdom of heaven, that is what makes me think when he says "depart from me I never knew you" that it is for all eternity, otherwise he would have said "everyone enters the kingdom of heaven eventually it is just a lot easier if you follow me" or something like that.The scripture you quoted from Mat. "depart from me I never knew you"... is talking about the foundation of the works that they believed were founded upon Christ "The Rock" but when it came down to it, their foundation was NOT built upon the Rock, therefore He could say I never knew you....they had built there foundation on doctrines of men, and leaning on their own understanding and works that were not His...
But just because He says depart from me I never knew you, ....why do you think that, that is for all eternity??
It just simply means that all their works that they were doing was not in Him, therefore He doesn't know them.
But that doesn't mean they won't eventually. Again their works will be burned up, their foundation did not stand, but they will come to know Him. For it is written...
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
And if you think that this is only applied to Israel and Judah, look at again, and rightly divide the word of Truth.
This applies to all who have built their foundations upon something other than The Rock.
It was a simple question for clarification. And you refuse to answer because that threatens you? ....I wont be led away from my point by demands or accusations.
I have a verse for you to consider.Something else to consider too. Just because I know who the President of The United States is .....Is no sign that I know Him or that He knows me either, we've never met nor had a Relationship with one another. This is the way that the scripture you quoted is to be taken.
The disobedient (1 Peter 3:20) resting comfortably ....Actually NO, Saint Peter does not depict a "practice" of preaching to the dead. No. He references a trip to the realm of the dead by Our Lord God after His Death on the Cross (and before His Resurrection) to tell those waiting there for Him the Good news that they were now free to move on to Paradise (whatever that is) with Him. Those would be the same people that same Lord God depicted resting comfortably after death like Lazarus, as opposed to others in the SAME realm of the dead that were (and are) still suffering. Some of those same "freed" dead people would be "seen" for a time in Jerusalem after His death on the Cross.
I'm not sure who "We" is, but I didn't.Did we ignore the rest of that verse? "specially of those that believe."
If you are saying that Christ died for all that is one thing but not all will accept Salvation. Just because He died for the whole world(speaking as a Libertarian Free Will advocate and not a Calvinist as they teach a different doctrine on Christ's atonement)doesn't mean all will come to Him and be saved.
UR teaches that Christ reconciles all but that's not Biblical. As I stated a while back it seems fruitless for God to come to the world as flesh and blood and die a horrible death if the eternal plan was to forgive everyone no matter who.
LOL, so by this remark do you mean to suggest Jesus lied when He depicted a righteous man in complete comfort after death?The disobedient (1 Peter 3:20) resting comfortably ....
Interesting!
Well taken out of context and changing a word to mean "especially" to help present that verse as proof of a UR belief already held is kind of convenient IMO. Especially given the same writer in the same letter says these things about this issue [my comments and underline added]:I'm not sure who "We" is, but I didn't.
In fact, the rest of that verse is what cinches it (for me,
anyway). As I pointed out previously (post #317), it
states that God is the Savior "especially" —
not "exclusively"— of those that believe.
Big difference, imo.
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He says "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven", not "not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven at first",
some people will not enter the kingdom of heaven, that is what makes me think when he says "depart from me I never knew you" that it is for all eternity
otherwise he would have said "everyone enters the kingdom of heaven eventually it is just a lot easier if you follow me" or something like that.
We are not the ones who "changing a word" to fit our theology YOU ARE. But first let's look at the word "especially/malista" to see what its Greek definition is.Well taken out of context and changing a word to mean "especially" to help present that verse as proof of a UR belief already held is kind of convenient IMO. Especially given the same writer in the same letter says these things about this issue [my comments and underline added]:
Same verse IN CONTEXT HEB 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for ALL at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ...28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many [NOT ALL]; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
Correctly quoted but not correctly applied to the salvation process. You are a spirit/soul/body. Accepting Jesus doesn't save your soul. Not one verse in the bible says so. Jesus saves spirits, the Holy Spirit saves souls, and the Father saves/glorifies bodies. Those who are saved "especially/to the greatest degree" are those who believed in this age (spirit saved) and then began to 'work out your salvation (of their soul) with fear and trembling.' Some will work to a greater degree/malista than others receiving a greater reward IN HEAVEN. Jesus didn't go preach to souls and bodies in 1Peter, he preached to SPIRITS of men dead in both body and soul...in hell/gehenna."For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" [VERY EXCLUSIVE] .
Geee, see how this lines up with what I just said. SOUL salvation and not spirit, not body."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
[MORE EXCLUSION - two groups of people - the damned and those that believe to the salvation of the soul]
Gee, see how that lines up too? It's talking entering heaven because your SPRIT is JUSTIFIED (1Tim3:16). We are not talking about a SOUL that's SANCTIFIED or a body that's GLORIFIED."But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" [MORE EXCLUSION],
Which is how we USED to believe also. But with the enlightenment of the Spirit to one who seeks 'the truth' ,comes a change of theology.So I cannot agree that this Saint would agree that the word translated "specially" was meant to be understood as "not exclusive". Especially (pun intended), when every time he addresses it he makes it very exclusive.
And how would you twist the Lazarus story to have our Lord God support the UR view?We are not the ones....
How "inclusive" was God at the flood or Sodom?Did you know that it is written in the bible that those who are born again are "firstfruits?" .. so what comes after us? remember the first creation, the light was declared first and the rest of the separations followed .. that though it seems exclusive in the micromanagement point of view day by day of creation to separate one thing from another .. in the end of the work it was all declared very good by God's eyes. So in the bigger picture God is inclusive .. giving room for uniqueness and genuine expression in the final work .
Another waffling 'duck and dive', rather than deal with the truths presented to refute your last post filled with 'twisted' error. Honestly Bubba you guys are like trying to nail snot to a fence post IMO. Unlike ETers, we sought reasons TO BELIEVE in a real good gospel and not just defend the false traditions and teachings of men. You'll never receive any revelatory truth from God as long as you cling so tightly to the lies of the pharisees. Not even Jesus could change the religious minds of most of them. The political spirit and religious spirit are two of the toughest, and most prevalent spirits in the church today IMO.And how would you twist the Lazarus story to have our Lord God support the UR view?
Thank you, Hillsage, you did a far better job than I would'veWe are not the ones who "changing a word" to fit our theology YOU ARE. But first let's look at the word "especially/malista" to see what its Greek definition is.
STRONG'S 3122 malista: (adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly.
As you can see this is not a word of 'exclusion', but one of 'inclusion'..to a degree, as it is also used in the verse below.
GAL 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto ALL men, especially/MALISTA unto them who are of the household of faith.
And, as far as us being "Out of context" as you say we are? Lets just look at 'your context'. in the verse you quoted below.
Same verse IN CONTEXT HEB 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for ALL at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ...28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Sometimes "many" means ALL if you really are 'in context' as WE are IMO.
ROM 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Correctly quoted but not correctly applied to the salvation process. You are a spirit/soul/body. Accepting Jesus doesn't save your soul. Not one verse in the bible says so. Jesus saves spirits, the Holy Spirit saves souls, and the Father saves/glorifies bodies. Those who are saved "especially/to the greatest degree" are those who believed in this age (spirit saved) and then began to 'work out your salvation (of their soul) with fear and trembling.' Some will work to a greater degree/malista than others receiving a greater reward IN HEAVEN. Jesus didn't go preach to souls and bodies in 1Peter, he preached to SPIRITS of men dead in both body and soul...in hell/gehenna.
Geee, see how this lines up with what I just said. SOUL salvation and not spirit, not body.
Gee, see how that lines up too? It's talking entering heaven because your SPRIT is JUSTIFIED (1Tim3:16). We are not talking about a SOUL that's SANCTIFIED or a body that's GLORIFIED.
Which is how we USED to believe also. But with the enlightenment of the Spirit to one who seeks 'the truth' ,comes a change of theology.
Don't under estimate yourself. I'm thoroughly enjoying your posts without all the mental 'talking head' stuff I put out. The truth I'm reading in your posts truly touch my heart. But if one is 'close minded' or 'hard hearted' it matters not how good of a job we try to do IMO. God will not force the truth down their throats.Thank you, Hillsage, you did a far better job than I would've
been able to in addressing this.
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