Universal reconciliation

brixken7 said:

. . . Actually, no one is consciously tormented in the Lake of Fire. In fact, this verse cannot even be used to prove that Satan is tormented in the Lake. It only says "they" (Satan and the demons) "will be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." It doesn't actually say where or how. Let's not add to God's Word.

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Rev 20:10 does not say "Satan and the demons"

As I have stated before the Greek word βασανισθησονται, translated "shall be tormented" is a plural. The only plural in this verse is "the devil, the beast" and "the false prophet." Note "the devil .... was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where ...they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." The where is "the lake of fire" the what "is tormented day and night for ever and ever." 1000 millennia times 1000 millennia from now, God's unchanging word will still read "they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Nothing in scripture can be interpreted as stating or implying that "the devil, the beast" and "the false prophet." are somehow spirited out of the LOF and tormented elsewhere or not tormented at all. That would be adding to God's word.

We often want to seal a persons fate before one dies, that is good for believers, but for non believers the bible says that the judgment comes after death not before. Nonbelievers live their lives thinking that they don't need God, unthankful and full of cursing, not at all recognizing that it is God who is subsidizing their whole existance. Their prideful fresh all puffed up. But as their soul is separated from their body at death they enter into a whole different realm, the bible describes it as outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, a bottomless pit, a lake of fire. In it all I think of that death as our soul being as far away from the presence, plan, and purpose of God and still exist, a place\experience completely inexperienced by anyone on this side of death. Most men refuse to believe this, but for all those who believe in Jesus, He has already tasted that death for them and those who don't believe will get to taste that death for themselves. After they have had a taste of that death for themselves I believe they will have a much purer and more thankful perspective of the merciful and graceful love of God, and repent. Then will be fulfilled the saying that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.

I praise God for their sakes that the judgment is reserved till after death.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I find this part fasinating, notice it's in The Presence of The Lamb and the Holy angels that these are Tormented?
Some may have seen this already, but for those who haven't, this word Tormented isn't quite what we think it is either.

Tormented....it is true it causes pain, vexing, etc. but.....Only to the things that oppose God and His Nature.

Tormented in the Greek :

bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
From G931;
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.
For those who have never heard of a Touch stone all one needs to do is Google it.

A touchstone is a small tablet of dark stone such as fieldstone, slate, or lydite, used for assayingprecious metalalloys. It has a finely grained surface on which soft metalsleave a visible trace.[1]
The touchstone was used in ancient Greece.

Drawing a line with gold on a touchstone will leave a visible trace. Because different alloys of gold have different colours (see gold) the unknown sample can be compared to samples of known purity. This method has been used since ancient times. In modern times, additional tests can be done. The trace will react in different ways to specific concentrations of nitric acid or aqua regia, thereby identifying the quality of the gold. Thus, 24 carat gold is not affected but 14 carat gold will show chemical activity.

And of course we all know from scripture that Gold represents The Nature of God, so this touchstone is to measure the amount of the nature of God that one has obtained, what ever isn't, is tormented in His Presence. All for Redemptive purposes.

DrBubbaLove said:

Am sure the news that everyone will eventually make it regardless of how they live this life would be a great comfort to many. Wonder why that message is not emphasized in the NT as that would indeed be Good News for everyone to hear. Why hide such a wonderful message?

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I think this may be connected to the below passage:

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (1st Timothy 4:10)

If this followed current evangelism logic, it would make no sense .. we have all the more motivation to tell everyone .. because God is going to save them all? no .. we're supposed to give a salespitch because what we're telling is really bad news

2KnowHim said:

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I find this part fasinating, notice it's in The Presence of The Lamb and the Holy angels that these are Tormented?
Some may have seen this already, but for those who haven't, this word Tormented isn't quite what we think it is either.

Tormented....it is true it causes pain, vexing, etc. but.....Only to the things that oppose God and His Nature.

Tormented in the Greek :

bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
From G931;
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

[The rest of this post is irrelevant! DA]

For those who have never heard of a Touch stone all one needs to do is Google it.

A touchstone is a small tablet of dark stone such as fieldstone, slate, or lydite, used for assayingprecious metalalloys. It has a finely grained surface on which soft metalsleave a visible trace.[1]
The touchstone was used in ancient Greece.

Drawing a line with gold on a touchstone will leave a visible trace. Because different alloys of gold have different colours (see gold) the unknown sample can be compared to samples of known purity. This method has been used since ancient times. In modern times, additional tests can be done. The trace will react in different ways to specific concentrations of nitric acid or aqua regia, thereby identifying the quality of the gold. Thus, 24 carat gold is not affected but 14 carat gold will show chemical activity.

And of course we all know from scripture that Gold represents The Nature of God, so this touchstone is to measure the amount of the nature of God that one has obtained, what ever isn't, is tormented in His Presence. All for Redemptive purposes.

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This is known as the "Illegitimate Total Transfer" fallacy when someone attempts to apply all the possible definitions to a word irrespective of context. Greek is not translated by arbitrarily picking a definition from a list in Strong's. The verb "bas-an-id'-zo," correctly translated "tormented," is different than its root word the noun "bas'-an-os" which does mean touchstone. People are not gold and they are not rubbed on a touchstone. The same word occurs in Mat 8:6 where it most certainly means tormented.

God's Word is Spirit and Life....is it not?
He is not out to destroy but to save....right?

Ya know,....Jesus rebuked his own disiples when they wanted to call fire down to destroy the people....

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

2KnowHim said:

God's Word is Spirit and Life....is it not?
He is not out to destroy but to save....right?

Ya know,....Jesus rebuked his own disiples when they wanted to call fire down to destroy the people....

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

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How does this passage from Jeremiah fit into your reasoning? God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”


Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

I don't think you will recieve this as an answer, but here goes....

You read those passages and see God destroying the people...
I read them and see Him destroying, the Imaginations of their hearts, their other gods, their worship of them...
Because "They refuse To Hear His Words" and be cleansed.

Der Alter said:

10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

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Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

These are the same enemies that we have in us that must be destroyed also, in order for us to be a praise and a Glory to Him.

Remember Jesus said.....your enemies would be of your own household, (that means within us).
The same as it was with Isreal and Judah.

Michael Collum said:

I think this may be connected to the below passage:

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (1st Timothy 4:10)

If this followed current evangelism logic, it would make no sense .. we have all the more motivation to tell everyone .. because God is going to save them all? no .. we're supposed to give a salespitch because what we're telling is really bad news

Click to expand...

Well the orthodox view is that He is the Savior of all, meaning without Him and what He did for us - no one would be saved. That salvation however is a precious Gift and like all gifts, it does not have to be accepted. Rejection puts one in the same state all were in before He became man - doomed.

The sales pitch should be God loves you and wants you to love Him. It should have never been love Him or else. But that does not mean we should not teach the consequences of not responding to His Love for us.

My post was meant to ask those who believe we are all saved regardless of what we do in this life - why anything the Bible depicts matters at all - the good news would be party on because it does not really matter - what is a limited span of burning for our actions here compared to an eternity some here imagine everyone inherits? (I agree it makes no sense - which is why I posed the question/made the point).

Seems my post about Alexander Mack, the founder of the Church of the Brethren, and his and the Church of the Brethren's belief in "Universal Restoration" through the 18th and 19th centuries was unfortunately ripped out of this thread. At least I can no longer locate it. I certainly hope no one is trying to rewrite history or suppress historical fact.

Frank Ramirez, a long time Church of the Brethren pastor, wrote a short book about the historical Church of the Brethren "Universal Restoration" perspective that is still available from the Brethren Press: http://www.brethrenpress.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=8356

DrBubbaLove said:

Well the orthodox view is that He is the Savior of all, meaning without Him and what He did for us - no one would be saved. That salvation however is a precious Gift and like all gifts, it does not have to be accepted. Rejection puts one in the same state all were in before He became man - doomed.

The sales pitch should be God loves you and wants you to love Him. It should have never been love Him or else. But that does not mean we should not teach the consequences of not responding to His Love for us.

My post was meant to ask those who believe we are all saved regardless of what we do in this life - why anything the Bible depicts matters at all - the good news would be party on because it does not really matter - what is a limited span of burning for our actions here compared to an eternity some here imagine everyone inherits? (I agree it makes no sense - which is why I posed the question/made the point).

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I've found from listening that on some level the Eastern Orthodox (real orthodox) and Evangelical Orthodox are different. One thing I heard someone say about Ultimate Reconciliation was that we hold out hope for it with one exception, some souls may refuse to repent. My unorthodox view of course applies protestant grace and catholic purgatory to all, except those who pass the trial in the Revelation Church Letters and "not taste of the second death"
.
I do not deny that the lake of fire will be a reality in the Eastern Orthodox sense in that God is a consuming fire, I simply refuse to apply the pattern of molech to the living God, for burning human beings was called a detestable thing that did not even enter into his mind.
.
And that question is a good one .. how can the punishment fit the crime? a finite life shrouded in ignorance determining an eternity of suffering? Doesn't even sound like the decrees brought about in the Old Testament.

DrBubbaLove said:

It should have never been love Him or else. But that does not mean we should not teach the consequences of not responding to His Love for us.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what this thread is all about...The consequences of rejecting that Love?
Whether it be, Anialation, Eternal Torment, or Eventually Reconciled?

I don't know of anyone that believes in UR that does not also believe and would gladly tell about the consequences of rejecting Him. But we also know that no matter what you tell someone or what kind of gory picture is painted for them, that won't change their heart, only God's Grace can do that. The Church and Hollywood has used Fear for how many yrs.? And it don't work.

Ultimate reconciliation means that God is patient, God is kind, and God does not keep record of wrongs
Eternal Torment means that God gives you a limited time offer, is Kind so you repent then goes medieval on you if you don't, and keeps record of all wrongs
Annihilation means that God destroys the works of his hands, discrediting himself.

In the beginning when everything was created, God looked at it all and saw that it was very pleasing to his eyes. Because it was so pleasing, I find it hard pressed to figure out when sin was created, Paul in his "do what I don't want to do" speech in Romans goes so far to say "it is no longer I who sin, but the sin within me that sins" .. so in the judgment, all that is being destroyed is the sin, the creation is being separated from it through what is called "the second death"
.
this is kind of like how the first covenant was to wash the body and the second covenant to wash our souls, in that "whoever has died has been set free from sin" their body is released from sin, in a likewise fashion the second death releases the soul from sin. In as much it is said after all things are thrown into the lake of fire in the book of revelation .. not too long after, the king sits on the throne and declares, I am making all things new. This is the promise of Jesus Christ, the restoration of all things. This is good news.
.
Romans Chapter 8
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
.
Since we are the first fruits .. then there is so much more to the new heaven and the new earth. We cannot see what it will be yet, but it will be awesome.

Michael Collum said:

Ultimate reconciliation means that God is patient, God is kind, and God does not keep record of wrongs
Eternal Torment means that God gives you a limited time offer, is Kind so you repent then goes medieval on you if you don't, and keeps record of all wrongs
Annihilation means that God destroys the works of his hands, discrediting himself.

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I'm reminded of the picture of a portrait of 'Jesus' knocking at the door:
"knock knock"
Who's there?"
"It's Jesus, let me in."
"Why?"
"I have to save you."
"From what?"
"From what I'm gonna do to you if you don't let me in."

Michael Collum said:

I've found from listening that on some level the Eastern Orthodox (real orthodox) and Evangelical Orthodox are different. One thing I heard someone say about Ultimate Reconciliation was that we hold out hope for it with one exception, some souls may refuse to repent. My unorthodox view of course applies protestant grace and catholic purgatory to all, except those who pass the trial in the Revelation Church Letters and "not taste of the second death"
.
I do not deny that the lake of fire will be a reality in the Eastern Orthodox sense in that God is a consuming fire, I simply refuse to apply the pattern of molech to the living God, for burning human beings was called a detestable thing that did not even enter into his mind.
.
And that question is a good one .. how can the punishment fit the crime? a finite life shrouded in ignorance determining an eternity of suffering? Doesn't even sound like the decrees brought about in the Old Testament.

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The punishment can only fit the crime if eternal because of Whom we offend when we sin. We sin against the Eternal Supreme Good, the consequences (whatever that may be) can only be eternal and would be an offense one would not be able to make right ourselves. As far as what those consequences are; other than it sounds bad and lasts forever, (and for humans that is lasting body and soul forever in that) I think we can only speculate what fire, brimstone...etc really means. We don't really know other than it sounds really bad. Also prefer the speculation along the lines of what people like CS Lewis offered where God is seen as somehow "withdrawing" Himself from the damned (and the resulting very negative consequence of that on them) basically being the very thing the damned long for in this life - the absence of there being a Supreme Good. The suffer at their own hands.

Burning alive for a human is undoubtedly one of the worst things we can imagine. So equating that fate with burning alive is not just natural, it creates imagery we can relate to. It does not necessarily mean a big smoking pit of lava rock (or a sun/star...etc) has to be what hell is. It is imagery.

As for what God would or would not do, He tells us what will happen to those who reject Him in this life (and no am not and the Church does not exclude the potential for salvation of those never belonging to any Church - another topic). What He says is (orthodox view) - one Judgement for all - based on this life - either Heaven or Hell. His Love is evident in that He made it possible for all to gain Heaven but He forces that Love (and His Gift) on no one. There is nothing in His discussions about that Judgement or the next life depicting a second later judgement or reprieve from what would have to be seen not so much as a first judgement but just a first cut - were those cut bypass Hell.

His Just is evident in that even those who never heard of His Name can be rightly judged because all know in their hearts what is Good ('He wrote the Law in our hearts). His Just is also evident in that there is eternal consequence (which is the only possible consequence) for offending our Creator and also is demonstrated to the glorified righteous in that Just treatment of those who reject the Good in this life.

Michael Collum said:

I think this may be connected to the below passage:

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. (1st Timothy 4:10)

Click to expand...

What I appreciate about that verse is that it specifically says
"especially" of those who believe -- not "exclusively" of
those who believe, as the mainstream teaches.
That's huge.

Michael Collum said:

God does not keep record of wrongs

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Amen. As it is written, God is love.
As it is also written, love keeps no record of wrongs.
Meaning, God keeps no record of wrongs.
Pretty much pulls the rug out from under the idea of
infinite conscious torment for finite wrongs.


-

Right chaela, and also I don't know if anyone has thought of this but, in order for someone to be tormented for eternity,.....
Wouldn't they have to have a body that would not die......and if so then your talking about an incorruptable body.....which in turn blows that theory all to pieces too....because corruption does not inherit incorruption, it must be put on.

chaela said:

What I appreciate about that verse is that it specifically says
"especially" of those who believe -- not "exclusively" of
those who believe, as the mainstream teaches.
That's huge.

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Only if one ignores the other 31,171 verses in the Bible. We cannot use the words of a disciple to twist the words of jesus.


10,000 millennia times 10,000 millennia from now God's unchanging word will still say "I never knew you."

Amen. As it is written, God is love.
As it is also written, love keeps no record of wrongs.
Meaning, God keeps no record of wrongs.
Pretty much pulls the rug out from under the idea of
infinite conscious torment for finite wrongs.

Click to expand...

Cherry picking versions, frantically searching for a proof text to prop up a false doctrine. That verse only says "love keeps no record of wrongs" in the NIV.