Unforgiveness is unforgivable...

Neogaia777 · Aug 28, 2022

I don't know if it was a major part of Jesus ministry to explain to them every little detail of how they could possibly measure up yet, etc, but that maybe there would be a lot more about that after the cross maybe, and that it was left to others to get into/explain in fuller detail after Pentecost maybe, etc...?

God Bless!

Blade · Aug 28, 2022

HI my brother I kindly disagree. For me that is not what that verse was saying. What was He talking about before this? So when we do not forgive it puts a wall so to speak between us and God. It was not (He was not) talking about something that had not happen yet in their day. Christ was still walking the earth and they were still under the law. There is no sin He did not die where the blood of JESUS has not covered and done away with. Other then one and this is not it.

We can always apply it to us today but some in some things when who He was talking to matters

Carl Emerson · Aug 28, 2022

Just to clarify Matt 15 which has been raised again and again.

Looking at the whole passage not just the one verse.

21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her with even a word. And His disciples came up and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us!” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 Yet He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 And she said, “Yes, Lord; but please help, for even the dogs feed on the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed at once.

I see this as a beautiful example of how wide and deep the Love and Calling of Jesus was.

The disciples seemed to want to be possessive about His ministry they wanted the poor woman sent away - this was a Jewish ministry after all...

Jesus tested her faith by agreeing with the sentiment expressed by the disciples to get her reaction.

But she didn't give up...

So Jesus tested her faith further by equating Goyim with dogs as was probably common in Jewish colloquial language to see if her faith was deeper.

Her response was "Master" the Masters Table !!!

Immediately Jesus saw her faith was great - she saw what the disciples could not see - His grace was far and wide and not just for the Jewish world. The disciples would not see this until much later when Cornelius was empowered by the Spirit.

So verse 24 needs to be processed with the whole interaction in view.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
No, you have said and refuse to retract the belief that the teachings of Jesus Christ are not for every believer, only for Jews under Law, based on a faulty understanding of Matthew 15:24. You are clearly being stiff necked, to your own detriment. This is not "minor stuff".
Proverbs 29:1 He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck,
Will suddenly be destroyed,
and that without remedy.

I am understanding Matthew 15:24 literally, taking Jesus words as they are.

You have not explained why that is faulty.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

fhansen said:
Paul would’ve agreed. Same gospel, same new covenant.

Your doctrine is not scriptural. Paul would say this instead three times

“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” – Romans 2:16

“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began…” – Romans 16:25

“Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:” – 2 Timothy 2:8

Is three times enough to convince you otherwise? The 2nd passage even tell you its the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Just to clarify Matt 15 which has been raised again and again.

Looking at the whole passage not just the one verse.

21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her with even a word. And His disciples came up and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us!” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 Yet He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 And she said, “Yes, Lord; but please help, for even the dogs feed on the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed at once.

I see this as a beautiful example of how wide and deep the Love and Calling of Jesus was.

The disciples seemed to want to be possessive about His ministry they wanted the poor woman sent away - this was a Jewish ministry after all...

Jesus tested her faith by agreeing with the sentiment expressed by the disciples to get her reaction.

But she didn't give up...

So Jesus tested her faith further by equating Goyim with dogs as was probably common in Jewish colloquial language to see if her faith was deeper.

Her response was "Master" the Masters Table !!!

Immediately Jesus saw her faith was great - she saw what the disciples could not see - His grace was far and wide and not just for the Jewish world. The disciples would not see this until much later when Cornelius was empowered by the Spirit.

So verse 24 needs to be processed with the whole interaction in view.

Gentiles could be blessed by blessing Israel in the Abrahamic Covenant, which was what that gentile lady did.

When God made Abraham and his descendants the focus of his blessings, here is what was said in Genesis 22”

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Verse 18 is the key verse in understand how God related to Gentiles in the Old Testament, as well as the 4 Gospels.

For the Canaanite Lady, she knew how to make use of the promise to Abraham Gen 22

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.

That lady made the correct analogy that even the dogs, a term used by the Jews to describe Gentiles, could be blessed with the crumbs falling from the Jewish children's bread. Thus Jesus healed her because her faith allowed her to be blessed, thru the Jews, as promised to Abraham.

fhansen · Aug 28, 2022

Guojing said:
Your doctrine is not scriptural. Paul would say this instead three times

“In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” – Romans 2:16

“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began…” – Romans 16:25

“Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:” – 2 Timothy 2:8

Is three times enough to convince you otherwise? The 2nd passage even tell you its the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.

Why should it be? He received "his gospel" in a unique way, but that in no way means that it was any different from anyone else's gospel. I think Paul was perhaps given clearest insight as to the needs of the gentiles but that did not change the basic gospel message, which was kept secret until the advent of Christ.

RDKirk · Aug 28, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
Unforgiveness does things to the heart that may not be able to be allowed in Heaven...

It is also not at all the right perspective for us to have also, like you have forgotten what it took to forgive you, and so it is a presumptuous and egotistical and arrogant view to have also, etc...

You must let it go, etc...

God Bless!

Or unforgiveness speaks of a deliberate refusal to allow the Lord to change one's heart to be fit for Heaven.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

fhansen said:
Why should it be? He received "his gospel" in a unique way, but that in no way means that it was any different from anyone else's gospel. I think Paul was perhaps given clearest insight as to the needs of the gentiles but that did not change the basic gospel message.

Do you understand what does "kept secret since the world began" means?

Prophecy vs mystery: Since the world began | Christian Forums

This post will explain further the difference between the gospel that was kept secret and the gospel that was spoken, since the world began.

fhansen · Aug 28, 2022

Guojing said:
Do you understand what does "kept secret since the world began" means?

Prophecy vs mystery: Since the world began | Christian Forums

This post will explain further the difference between the gospel that was kept secret and the gospel that was spoken, since the world began.

That link wouldn't open up. But it's just a novel idea created to support a stifled and erronoeous theology on justification. The church has always and everywhere understood there to be one gospel, preached by Christ and all His disciples. Paul aligns perfectly with the rest when read objectively and thoroughly, yet still a bit diffciicult to understand sometimes as Peter asserts.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

fhansen said:
That link wouldn't open up. But it's just a novel idea created to support a stifled and erronoeous theology on justification. The church has always and everywhere understood there to be one gospel, preached by Christ and all His disciples. Paul aligns perfectly with the rest when read objectively and thoroughly, yet still a bit diffciicult to understand sometimes as Peter asserts.

Of course if you are hearing this for the 1st time, it will take time for it to sink in. Many things are taught in churches so often that people just assumed it must be correct, but they have never examined scripture for themselves.

Here is the content.

This phrase "Since the world began" has intrigued me recently. Performing a search in the KJV bible, here are some places where it appears.

Luke 1

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Both the Luke and Acts account are speaking of the same thing, which is how Jesus came as a promise from God to the Jews, to be their King, their Messiah, their redeemer. This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

However, we know that the Jews rejected their Messiah for the final time in Acts 9, with the stoning of Stephen. It was at that time, Jesus raised Paul and revealed to him a secret, or a mystery, the Gospel of Grace.

Romans 16

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

My question for reflection is this, the prophecy of Jesus being their King, the Gospel of the Kingdom, was spoken by God since the world began. Yet Paul in Romans revealed that there was also a mystery which was kept secret since the world began.

For those people who believe that both Gospels contain the same message, wouldn't this be some kind of contradiction? How do people still see both messages as the same?

Carl Emerson · Aug 28, 2022

OK I did my best to explain the passage in Matt 15.

Can we please return to topic and focus on the matter in the OP.

Folks are welcome to migrate to a new thread if they want to beat out the 'two Gospel' theory.

Your co-operation appreciated.

We seem to have quite a bit of support for the seriousness of holding onto unforgiveness and the consequences of so doing.

Similar to Hating a brother or sister, these sins disqualify one from God's blessing.

So I stand by my assertion that unforgiveness renders us beyond forgiveness.

It seems reasonable to assume that a person in such a condition is not heading towards salvation. But hey... that is what Scripture indicates but we are not the Judge.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK I did my best to explain the passage in Matt 15.

Can we please return to topic and focus on the matter in the OP.

Folks are welcome to migrate to a new thread if they want to beat out the 'two Gospel' theory.

Your co-operation appreciated.

We seem to have quite a bit of support for the seriousness of holding onto unforgiveness and the consequences of so doing.

Similar to Hating a brother or sister, these sins disqualify one from God's blessing.

So I stand by my assertion that unforgiveness renders us beyond forgiveness.

It seems reasonable to assume that a person in such a condition is not heading towards salvation. But hey... that is what Scripture indicates but we are not the Judge.

I agree that Jesus meant what he said literally in Matthew 6:15, just as he meant what he said in Matthew 15:24. =)

fhansen · Aug 28, 2022

Guojing said:
Of course if you are hearing this for the 1st time, it will take time for it to sink in. Many things are taught in churches so often that people just assumed it must be correct, but they have never examined scripture for themselves.

Here is the content.

This phrase "Since the world began" has intrigued me recently. Performing a search in the KJV bible, here are some places where it appears.

Luke 1

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Both the Luke and Acts account are speaking of the same thing, which is how Jesus came as a promise from God to the Jews, to be their King, their Messiah, their redeemer. This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

However, we know that the Jews rejected their Messiah for the final time in Acts 9, with the stoning of Stephen. It was at that time, Jesus raised Paul and revealed to him a secret, or a mystery, the Gospel of Grace.

Romans 16

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

My question for reflection is this, the prophecy of Jesus being their King, the Gospel of the Kingdom, was spoken by God since the world began. Yet Paul in Romans revealed that there was also a mystery which was kept secret since the world began.

For those people who believe that both Gospels contain the same message, wouldn't this be some kind of contradiction? How do people still see both messages as the same?

Just saying, it's esoterica. But it's always interesting to keep seeking answers. The bottom line for me is that Paul's teachings interrelate fine with the others.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

fhansen said:
Just saying, it's esoterica. But it's always interesting to keep seeking amswers. The bottom line for me is that Paul's teachings interrelate fine with the others.

Yes, we learn so much more in disagreements, then we do otherwise. =)

The Liturgist · Aug 28, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK I did my best to explain the passage in Matt 15.

Can we please return to topic and focus on the matter in the OP.

Folks are welcome to migrate to a new thread if they want to beat out the 'two Gospel' theory.

Your co-operation appreciated.

We seem to have quite a bit of support for the seriousness of holding onto unforgiveness and the consequences of so doing.

Similar to Hating a brother or sister, these sins disqualify one from God's blessing.

So I stand by my assertion that unforgiveness renders us beyond forgiveness.

It seems reasonable to assume that a person in such a condition is not heading towards salvation. But hey... that is what Scripture indicates but we are not the Judge.

I agree with you. Furthermore, I was taught that if bishops in the Church have to anathematize someone, they are not damning them, but rather delivering the person to God if the anathematized dies before repenting, and our God is perfect, as St. Basil says, possessing in full every quality and perfection to its highest and furthest extent, and among other qualities we Christians ascribe to our God is that He is infinitely merciful.

Thus the Gospel is a Gospel of forgiveness.

Guojing · Aug 28, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus tested her faith by agreeing with the sentiment expressed by the disciples to get her reaction.

So verse 24 needs to be processed with the whole interaction in view.

Out of curiosity and to be clear what you are saying here, are you implying that Jesus did not actually meant what he said in Matthew 15:24, but rather he was just "agreeing with the sentiment expressed by the disciples to get her reaction", so as to test her faith?

Carl Emerson · Aug 29, 2022

Guojing said:
Out of curiosity and to be clear what you are saying here, are you implying that Jesus did not actually meant what he said in Matthew 15:24, but rather he was just "agreeing with the sentiment expressed by the disciples to get her reaction", so as to test her faith?

Yes.

Guojing · Aug 29, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Yes.

I see, thanks for clarifying, appreciate it.

The Liturgist · Aug 29, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Yes.

Indeed, and since our Lord, being both God and man, is omniscient, in testing her faith He knew she would succeed; it was more of an exercise that would improve the health of her faith and that of the the Disciples who witnessed it.

Unforgiveness is unforgivable...

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