Understanding the Gaza Conflict

[winginitx]

Roots of the Gaza Conflict

"For decades, Arabs had demanded that Israel end the "occupation," and in 2005, Israel did so, disengaging unilaterally from Gaza. With their demands met, there was no ‘cycle of violence’ to respond to, no further justification for anything other than peace and prosperity. With its central location and beautiful beaches on the East Mediteranean, a peaceful and prosperous Gaza could have become another Hong Kong; a shining trade and commerce center. But instead of choosing peace, the Palestinians chose Islamic jihad. They rolled their rocket launchers to the border and started bombing Israeli civilians."

"No Muslim leader can survive in a Muslim country if he announces the end of Jihad against non-Muslim countries and states that all references to Jihad in Islamic law do not apply today. Treating non-Muslim neighboring countries and individual as equals, with respect and in peace without trying to convert them to Islam, is simply against Islamic Law."

"Some Muslims tell me that they don’t believe in Sharia and question why am I making a big deal about it. My answer is that Sharia is the law of the land in 54 Muslim countries and many Muslim groups are demanding Sharia in the West. In 1990, 45 Muslim countries signed the Cairo Human Rights Declaration which stated that Sharia has supremacy over the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights."

 

[pariah112]

For decades, Arabs had demanded that Israel end the "occupation," and in 2005, Israel did so, disengaging unilaterally from Gaza. With their demands met, there was no ‘cycle of violence’ to respond to, no further justification for anything other than peace and prosperity.

Is this how to Understanding the Gaza Conflict?

1. Israelis have claimed to have ended the occupation of the Gaza Strip in 2005.

While Israel has indeed removed the settlements from the tiny coastal Strip, they have in no way ended the occupation. They remained in control of the borders, the airspace and the waterways of Gaza, and have carried out frequent raids and targeted assassinations since the disengagement.


Furthermore, since 2006 Israel has imposed a comprehensive siege on the Strip. For over two years, Gazans have lived on the edge of starvation and without the most basic necessities of human life, such as cooking or heating oil and basic medications. This siege has already caused a humanitarian catastrophe which has only been exacerbated by the dramatic increase in Israeli military aggression.

 

[winginitx]

Is this how to Understanding the Gaza Conflict?

1. Israelis have claimed to have ended the occupation of the Gaza Strip in 2005.

While Israel has indeed removed the settlements from the tiny coastal Strip, they have in no way ended the occupation. They remained in control of the borders, the airspace and the waterways of Gaza, and have carried out frequent raids and targeted assassinations since the disengagement.

Yes! The border and inroads back into Israel; that's what governments do, protect their borders. By attacks, of course, you mean retaliating when fired upon....yes, that is what nations do when trying to protect themselves. Assasinate, kill, eliminate...pick your adjective; they gho after the bad guys trying to murder them. Yep.

Furthermore, since 2006 Israel has imposed a comprehensive siege on the Strip. For over two years, Gazans have lived on the edge of starvation and without the most basic necessities of human life, such as cooking or heating oil and basic medications. This siege has already caused a humanitarian catastrophe which has only been exacerbated by the dramatic increase in Israeli military aggression.

At the beginning of Israeli operations against Hamas, the New York Times ran a deeply dishonest headline. "Israeli Air Raids to Punish Hamas Kill 200 in Gaza," said America's "Journal of Record." In fact, the purpose of the Israeli strike wasn't punishment- it was protection. Israel made clear its single goal in going after Hamas: to put an end to the literally thousands of rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. "Punishment" and "revenge" were beside the point - and in no sense is the current struggle part of a "cycle of violence." The rocket attacks by Hamas weren't a response to violence, but rather an answer to withdrawal--Israel's controversial 2005 decision to put a unilateral end to Israeli occupation of Gaza. Concessions actually produce a more reliable violent response from Islamic terrorists than do decisive military actions.


-Michael Medved

 

[PantsMcFist]

I think the Palestinians would have much more success if they embraced the Satyagraha.

 

[winginitx]

I think the Palestinians would have much more success if they embraced the Satyagraha.

I agree Pants ( love the name!). That is a wonderful philosophy - as long as your advesary recognizes norms of civilization...and I will give you an example:

Ghandi told and advocated the Jews not to resist Hitler and the extermination. I am paraphrasing here, but in essense, he stated that by allowing their destruction, they will garner more world sympathy and effect a better long-term outcome.

Satyagraha only works when life is valued. With an adversary bent on total annililation, it is suicidal. National suicide to make a point is not noble.

But I like your philosophy in general...just not in this specific case. Have a great day!

 

[Kalevalatar]

For decades, Arabs had demanded that Israel end the "occupation," and in 2005, Israel did so, disengaging unilaterally from Gaza.

The State of Israel dismantled its Gaza settlements, yes, the West Bank settlements, i.e. "the occupation", no, on the contrary. Apparently, while the State of Israel ostesibly "disengaged" from Gaze, the Israeli West Bank settlement activity (on occupied Palestinian land) saw a whopping 69 percent increase in 2008, compared to 2007, reports the Jerusalem Post. Meanwhile, a secret Israeli database on the West Bank illegal Israeli settlements obtained by Haaretz, reveals, among other things that:

• An analysis of the data reveals that, in the vast majority of the settlements - about 75 percent - construction, sometimes on a large scale, has been carried out without the appropriate permits or contrary to the permits that were issued. The database also shows that, in more than 30 settlements, extensive construction of buildings and infrastructure (roads, schools, synagogues, yeshivas and even police stations) has been carried out on private lands belonging to Palestinian West Bank residents.
• The information contained in the database does not conform to the state's official position, as presented, for instance, on the Foreign Ministry Web site, which states: "Israel's actions relating to the use and allocation of land under its administration are all taken with strict regard to the rules and norms of international law - Israel does not requisition private land for the establishment of settlements." Since in many of the settlements, it was the government itself, primarily through the Ministry of Construction and Housing, that was responsible for construction, and since many of the building violations involve infrastructure, roads, public buildings and so on, the official data also demonstrate government responsibility for the unrestrained planning and lack of enforcement of regulations in the territories. The extent of building violations also attests to the poor functioning of the Civil Administration, the body in charge of permits and supervision of construction in the territories.

Reports the Haaretz staff writer Uri Blau, "The sense of dissonance only intensifies when you find that municipal offices, police and fire stations were also built upon and currently operate on lands that belong to Palestinians."

It's well understood that peace requires two things to happen, one from both parties of the conflict: 1) halting of Palestinian illegal terror activities in Israel, and 2) halting of Israeli illegal settlement activities on Palestinian land.

 

[winginitx]

It's well understood that peace requires two things to happen, one from both parties of the conflict: 1) halting of Palestinian illegal terror activities in Israel, and 2) halting of Israeli illegal settlement activities on Palestinian land.

Listen, I agree with you here. I dont think the settlements are a good idea.

But let me create a analogy...not a perfect one, but fitting...and you're a Fin, so let me use Finland as an example...bear with me.

Say, those pesky Russians on your Eastern border hate you so much, that they didn't recognize Finlands right to exist, invaded Finland numeorus times and, just to make their point, routinely fired thousands of rockets into you towns and villages. They even encourage all their former states to attack you and want nothing more in life, and death, to eradicate you.

Just to make it more geographically accurate, lets Russia did legally annex everything south of Rt. 20 and East of Rt.78 - and that whole chunk belonged to Russia.

With me so far?

But, the Fins got tired of being invaded and the next time Russia attacked, you brave Fins fought back and won ...and decided for security sake, not to give that chunk of land back. You Finlanders figured, "Hey, if we are going to constantly be attacked, we are going to create a buffer zone and guess what Russia, you attack and lost so we are going to keep this buffer until such time as we are convinced you won't attack us again with your friends. Oh, and by the way Russia, anytime you want to recognize our right to exist, guess what? You can have it back!"

You see, you Finlanders know that from Pudasjarvi and west to the sea is a short distance really, and on a clear day, you can see from one to the other. You know that if that narrow choke point is cut off, militarily, your screwed and you now face a war on two fronts and your forces are split. Thats why I always admired you Fins......always thinking! Smart lads.

Even knowing the history though and even though everyone around you; those pesky Russians, Estonians, latvian and even those Swedes, invaded you and lost, the have the termerity to whine to the world body and say they are the victims. The UN has condemned you and has more sanctions on you than any other nation; yes, thats right. You Fins racked up more sanctions than Cuba (sorry CCGirl) North Korea, Iran, Syria and the Sudan!!! Wow, you Fins are unpopular!! But you're not wrong.

I'll end now, but you get my point. This is a complex ordeal. Aside from Turkey, Israel's neighbors want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews. When they want peace and lay down their arms, all this grief goes away.

 

[Kalevalatar]

It's well understood that peace requires two things to happen, one from both parties of the conflict: 1) halting of Palestinian illegal terror activities in Israel, and 2) halting of Israeli illegal settlement activities on Palestinian land.

Listen, I agree with you here. I dont think the settlements are a good idea.

The Israeli settlements on privately owned Palestinian land are against the international law of occupation, they are against the state of Israel's own laws, and they are against the Roadmap.

So, fully knowing this, why does the state of Israel allow the settlement activity on privately owned Palestinian land to go on? Why does the state of Israel in same cases even actually actively encourage and pay for immigrants from Russia, South Africa to come over and set camp on privately owned Palestinian land?

Surely, the Israeli government realizes just as well as we all do that none of us would be thrilled to find out that the government is allowing and even encouraging strangers to come squat on our piece of property. So why should we expect that the Arabs -- Muslim, Jewish, or Christian -- should be any less miffed than we would be, if someone did that to us. It must be really frustrating for the Arabs to realize that not only is the Israeli government turning a blind eye to these thefts, squatting, but the Israeli government also does not take any action at all to stop the illegal activities and promote the rule of law, as democratic governments are tasked to.

Indeed, I say that this Israeli settler minority is holding millions of people of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths hostage just the same than the Palestinian minority supporting the various militant factions is.

But let me create a analogy...not a perfect one, but fitting...and you're a Fin, so let me use Finland as an example...bear with me.

I'm afraid you got it backwards. Using your analogy, the late Soviet Union is then the state of Israel and the Finns are the Palestinians. Because it was the late Soviet Union that forced my mom to leave her childhood home and it was the Soviet Union that allowed Soviets from elsewhere, total strangers, if you will, to occupy my mom's old childhood home. It is the state of Israel that invites Russians and South Africans to immigrate to Israel and build their new homes on someone else's privately owned land, thus often destroying these other family's orchads and essentially their livelihood.

When you destroy someone else's means of making a living and feeding their family, you create a lot of bad blood. Bad blood does not create security for anyone, that should not be too hard to understand.

When you bulldoze someone's orchads and build your house on it -- there goes someone else's means of feeding their family. When you erect road blocks and walls to ensure your free access to the settlement you build on someone else's private property -- there goes that someone else's free access to education. And suddenly you have a generation of frustrated young people who have no jobs because you bulldozed their father's farms and no access to education because you blocked their roads. I don't condone terrorism, ever, but this hopelessness and lack of opportunities and sense of injustice makes a good crowd for the terrorists to exploit, don't you agree?

I'll end now, but you get my point. This is a complex ordeal. Aside from Turkey, Israel's neighbors want to destroy Israel and kill the Jews. When they want peace and lay down their arms, all this grief goes away.

Hogwash. May I kindly suggest you update your files. The state of Israel has bilateral relationships with neighbours Jordan and Egypt, and the United States of America obviously has no problems with arming either of these countries, seeing as Egypt is the second largest regular recipient of US military and economic aid, just after Israel. I challange anyone to continue claiming that the second largest US military client in the region just next door to Israel is, supposedly, bend on killing Jews and destroying the state of Israel.

Perhaps you noticed that none of state of Israel's Arab neighbours went to war with Israel during the state of Israel's most recent Gaza bombing campaign. The state of Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons that none of its surrounding Arab neighbours has. So, to borrow your analogy again, the state of Israel is Russia with 10,000 nuclear warheads and the surrounding Arab neighbours are the nuclear-free countries Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania neighbouring Russia. To claim that the Arab countries want to "destroy" Israel is just as much pure hyperbole than to claim that Finland wants to destroy nuclear weapons state Russia next door.

 

[Tanakh]

The Israeli settlements on privately owned Palestinian land are against the international law of occupation, they are against the state of Israel's own laws, and they are against the Roadmap.

First and foremost the laws governing Israel are G-d's laws not the laws of the UN and the roadmap is worthless.

So, fully knowing this, why does the state of Israel allow the settlement activity on privately owned Palestinian land to go on? Why does the state of Israel in same cases even actually actively encourage and pay for immigrants from Russia, South Africa to come over and set camp on privately owned Palestinian land?

It is not "Palestinian" land but Jewish land (and it always has been) that is occupied by arabs. I would rather live in Judea then in Tel Aviv so I cannot blame Jews from Russia wanting to settle in the land of our forefathers.

Surely, the Israeli government realizes just as well as we all do that none of us would be thrilled to find out that the government is allowing and even encouraging strangers to come squat on our piece of property. So why should we expect that the Arabs -- Muslim, Jewish, or Christian -- should be any less miffed than we would be, if someone did that to us. It must be really frustrating for the Arabs to realize that not only is the Israeli government turning a blind eye to these thefts, squatting, but the Israeli government also does not take any action at all to stop the illegal activities and promote the rule of law, as democratic governments are tasked to.

The only way Israel will survive is to take the offensive and that means taking back the land that G-d gave to us 3300 years ago in His decree on Mount Sinai so therefore the arabs are strangers in our land. People will say that they have been their for nearly 2000 years and we Jews say so what we were their 2000 years before that. If we Jews were to promote the rule of law then it must be G-d's law not democratic law espeacially if secular law goes against Jewish law. After all why should Israel even exist if we do not intend to follow G-d's laws?

Indeed, I say that this Israeli settler minority is holding millions of people of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths hostage just the same than the Palestinian minority supporting the various militant factions is.

Wrong, you do not see Jews going into shopping malls and onto buses and into elderly care centers and blowing themselves up do you? NO you don't but if that were to happen I am sure we would blame it on the illegal occupation of our lands. "Holding millions of people hostage" I don't think so!

I'm afraid you got it backwards. Using your analogy, the late Soviet Union is then the state of Israel and the Finns are the Palestinians. Because it was the late Soviet Union that forced my mom to leave her childhood home and it was the Soviet Union that allowed Soviets from elsewhere, total strangers, if you will, to occupy my mom's old childhood home. It is the state of Israel that invites Russians and South Africans to immigrate to Israel and build their new homes on someone else's privately owned land, thus often destroying these other family's orchads and essentially their livelihood.

Russia is not Israel so don't compare the two.

When you destroy someone else's means of making a living and feeding their family, you create a lot of bad blood. Bad blood does not create security for anyone, that should not be too hard to understand.

So you are essentially saying that Israel is causing people to go and blow themselves up along with others? That is like saying the existence of civil law causes people to commit crimes.

When you bulldoze someone's orchads and build your house on it -- there goes someone else's means of feeding their family. When you erect road blocks and walls to ensure your free access to the settlement you build on someone else's private property -- there goes that someone else's free access to education. And suddenly you have a generation of frustrated young people who have no jobs because you bulldozed their father's farms and no access to education because you blocked their roads. I don't condone terrorism, ever, but this hopelessness and lack of opportunities and sense of injustice makes a good crowd for the terrorists to exploit, don't you agree?

No I don't agree! First off there would not need to be a concrete barrier if there was no terrorism and if "desperate people" let terrorists exploit them then that is their problem. Desperation does not create suicide bombers and does not cause people to slit other peoples throats and then post the video of the killing on the internet!

Hogwash. May I kindly suggest you update your files. The state of Israel has bilateral relationships with neighbours Jordan and Egypt, and the United States of America obviously has no problems with arming either of these countries, seeing as Egypt is the second largest regular recipient of US military and economic aid, just after Israel. I challange anyone to continue claiming that the second largest US military client in the region just next door to Israel is, supposedly, bend on killing Jews and destroying the state of Israel.

The entire Muslim world hates Israel! And Israel only gets between 3-6 billion a year in aid and yet the United States spends on average 80 billion a year in keeping U.S. troops in Germany supposedly defending them from something but I...LOL...forgot what it was now! Oh thats right America is still defending Germany from Poland! HAHAHA

Perhaps you noticed that none of state of Israel's Arab neighbours went to war with Israel during the state of Israel's most recent Gaza bombing campaign. The state of Israel has undeclared nuclear weapons that none of its surrounding Arab neighbours has. So, to borrow your analogy again, the state of Israel is Russia with 10,000 nuclear warheads and the surrounding Arab neighbours are the nuclear-free countries Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania neighbouring Russia. To claim that the Arab countries want to "destroy" Israel is just as much pure hyperbole than to claim that Finland wants to destroy nuclear weapons state Russia next door.

Why should Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Syria go to war outright with Israel when the "Palestinians" will do it for them. So long as the "Palestinians" are doing most of the fighting why should they do anything but fund them? After the 1973 war the Muslim world realized that defeating Israel is not going to be easy unless they get the world on their side, which apparently is very easy to do, and by prolonging the use of terrorism to try and subdue the Israeli populace into submission by making them fed up with fighting. They use people like Jimmy Carter for their PR propaganda and the world just eats it up not caring enough to look at the facts. Israel will only submit if Israel destroys itself and through their idiotic leaders this is beginning to happen. The only way Israel will survive is to stand firm and with one loud voice say, "NEVER AGAIN!!"

 

[billwald]

If the Jews are the nicest people in the world then why did the peace loving Christian Americans refuse to let one miserable ship of refugees land here and send them back to Hitler?

 

[Maverick3000]

Roots of the Gaza Conflict




With the explosive current events in Gaza, the world needs to understand the roots of this eternal conflict, otherwise we are all kidding ourselves with hopes of peace.
For decades, Arabs had demanded that Israel end the "occupation," and in 2005, Israel did so, disengaging unilaterally from Gaza. With their demands met, there was no ‘cycle of violence’ to respond to, no further justification for anything other than peace and prosperity. With its central location and beautiful beaches on the East Mediteranean, a peaceful and prosperous Gaza could have become another Hong Kong; a shining trade and commerce center. But instead of choosing peace, the Palestinians chose Islamic jihad. They rolled their rocket launchers to the border and started bombing Israeli civilians.

Understanding the reasons why the Palestinians chose violence over peace requires connecting the dots from the behavior of Muslim states

Stopped reading there.

Another lousy article that shows absolutely not understanding on the causes on the conflict. Palestinian resistance has historically been secular and some of the nastiest members of the Palestinian resistance have actually been Christians. The conflict is one of Nationalism, with religion being secondary at best.

 

[Verv]

Is this how to Understanding the Gaza Conflict?

1. Israelis have claimed to have ended the occupation of the Gaza Strip in 2005.

While Israel has indeed removed the settlements from the tiny coastal Strip, they have in no way ended the occupation. They remained in control of the borders, the airspace and the waterways of Gaza, and have carried out frequent raids and targeted assassinations since the disengagement.


Furthermore, since 2006 Israel has imposed a comprehensive siege on the Strip. For over two years, Gazans have lived on the edge of starvation and without the most basic necessities of human life, such as cooking or heating oil and basic medications. This siege has already caused a humanitarian catastrophe which has only been exacerbated by the dramatic increase in Israeli military aggression.

I think this goes back to the fact that they are being consistently attacked by the Palestinians, and the Palestinian government has only worsened over the years to take on a more extreme tone.

Israel is looking for settlements yet it seems Hamas truly wants to have all of Israel.

Or as they say,

"From the river to the sea."

 

[Zaznaykin]

Here's an article by Donald Neff of Time magazine that I think gives a better explanation of the background of the current conflict.

http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=103&aid=147&pg=1