Understanding the afterlife from a protestant/evangelical perspective

shturt678 · Apr 10, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
The two issues are directly related. Those which hold on to the pagan 'immortal soul' theology, also in the end negate any kind of real judgment, and therefore simply preach almost everyone into heaven [or in Rome's case a puragatory before heaven for almost all]. They do not take God at His word, which clearly says to the sinner, in opposition to satan's doctrine, "...thou shalt surely die." [Genesis 2:17]

Us Amills. view that one is judged secretly and forensically while alive on earth, upon death, either up there and down there. At the Great While Throne Judgment, they are already sitting on the right side to receive their inheritance,i.e., judged already or on the left to be judged publicaly before the universe to be cast in the lake of fire where they will eternity to think about it. Thank you, good response!

Leuko Petra · Apr 10, 2013

shturt678 said:
Lk.23:42, 43 "....when thou comes in connection with thy kingdom!...v.43 ....today (small "t") in company with me shalt thou be in the Paradise!" Yes, no "soul" sleep," but have "body" sleep. Minor detail; however, "When thou comest into thy kingdom," i.e., at thy death, is not what the malefactor either says or means. "When thou comes in they kingdom," i.e., in connection with it, means at the end of the world. You got it!

Consider again, that all throughout the Scripture, those which die, fall "asleep".

The Fathers:

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:4

Consider Stephen:

And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60

Consider King David:

So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 1 Kings 2:10

And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country. 1 Kings 11:21

Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

Consider [and] hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the [sleep of] death; Psalms 13:3

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17

His sons come to honour, and he knoweth [it] not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth [it] not of them. JOb 14:21

But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:10

Read the context and the very next verses.

Now, you need to study the word "soul" in scripture. Start with Genesis 2:7.

Leuko Petra · Apr 10, 2013

shturt678 said:
Us Amills...

How can you believe "a"-"Millenialism", when the bible specifically teaches "the millennium":

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2)

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:3)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (Revelation 20:7)

Millennium means "thousand years" [Latin, Mille Annum].

A - Millennium, means "no/against thousand years".

Like "theist" and "a-theist".

Leuko Petra · Apr 10, 2013

shturt678 said:
Us Amills. ...to receive their inheritance...

Eternal life is a gift only to the righteous not the wicked. They [wicked] "perish" [John 3:16], see Revelation 20:11, "there was found no place for them".

Leuko Petra · Apr 10, 2013

shturt678 said:
Us Amills. view ... [the wicked] to be cast in the lake of fire where they will eternity to think about it. ...

There is no thinking in death. They are to be no more forever, both "root" and "branch" [Malachi 4:1].

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more. Ezekiel 28:19

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. Psalms 37:20

The wicked will be completely cut off of any life. It is "the second death".

dysert · Apr 11, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
Go to Genesis 2:7 -

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Genesis 2:7

Can you please demonstrate where we are given a soul? instead of becoming one through the combinatiomn of the dust of the ground and the breath of life from God?

Are you saying that we're all just souls walking around without bodies? We know from Heb. 4:12 that man consists of a soul and a spirit, and experientially a body as well. We also know from Eccl. 12:7 that at death the body returns to the ground, and the spirit returns to God. And we know from Acts 2:31 that the soul also returns to the spirit world once separated from the body.

Leuko Petra said:
Let us move to:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

Notice, in the erroneous theology of "immortal soul/spirit", everyone [including the wicked] goes directly to Heaven according to that verse, for that is where the "spirit" returns unto. That is in direct contradiction to scripture:

"...there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth." Revelation 21:27

Where in this verse [Ecc 12:7] does it say mankind goes - to "the earth" or to heaven?
The "spirit" returns to God which gave "it" [not yourself], unto us, which are "dust" [Genesis 3:14,19].

All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils; Job 27:3

Whose breath and spirit is it, ours or His? it is His:

If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Job 34:14

Notice, can we retain the "spirit", which is the "breath of life" of God? No:

[There is] no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither [hath he] power in the day of death: and [there is] no discharge in [that] war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. Ecclesiastes 8:8

And more, for here is what the deceiving Satan said in the Garden:

"...Ye shall not surely die:" Genesis 3:4

There is much more that we may study from the scripture still, but know that it does not contradict itself.

I'm not quite sure what point(s) you're trying to make by mashing together verses from Eccl., Rev., Gen., and Job, but I agree with you that Scripture does not contradict itself.

dysert said:
there is the Millennium, where immortal Christians and normal Christians live on the present earth under the rule of Christ (who is reigning from Jerusalem)

Leuko Petra said:
This is also unscriptural, as may be demonstrated from Revelation 20 alone, but even more so, we may also test by the scriptures by asking a few questions.

What happens just before Jesus comes in His second Coming? The 7 Last what?

Rev. 20 is the primary passage that teaches the Millennium. I don't know what you're saying is unscriptural. To answer your question, it's the 7 Last Bowls. (What's that have to do with anything?)

shturt678 · Apr 11, 2013

dysert said:
Are you saying that we're all just souls walking around without bodies? We know from Heb. 4:12 that man consists of a soul and a spirit, and experientially a body as well. We also know from Eccl. 12:7 that at death the body returns to the ground, and the spirit returns to God. And we know from Acts 2:31 that the soul also returns to the spirit world once separated from the body.

Thank you. Gave an ol' old Lutheran a 120v. a.c. kick-start for the day. Only wanted to place a Lutheran thought along with your valid response, i.e., Acts 2:31, I think Peter foresaw what David recorded in Ps.16, where in the case of David this was half fulfilled, namely only the clause that his soul would not be abandoned unto hades. In the case of Christ of course, both were fulfilled. Upon David's death, him, in his person, less sin and his body, entered heaven. Your Heb.4:12 was also excellent not that I'm anybody. Thanks to you folks, plural, again.

dysert · Apr 11, 2013

dysert said:
Are you saying that we're all just souls walking around without bodies? We know from Heb. 4:12 that man consists of a soul and a spirit, and experientially a body as well. We also know from Eccl. 12:7 that at death the body returns to the ground, and the spirit returns to God. And we know from Acts 2:31 that the soul also returns to the spirit world once separated from the body.

shturt678 said:
Thank you. Gave an ol' old Lutheran a 120v. a.c. kick-start for the day. Only wanted to place a Lutheran thought along with your valid response, i.e., Acts 2:31, I think Peter foresaw what David recorded in Ps.16, where in the case of David this was half fulfilled, namely only the clause that his soul would not be abandoned unto hades. In the case of Christ of course, both were fulfilled. Upon David's death, him, in his person, less sin and his body, entered heaven. Your Heb.4:12 was also excellent not that I'm anybody. Thanks to you folks, plural, again.

You're somebody! At a minimum, you're a great encourager!

Leuko Petra · Apr 11, 2013

dysert said:
Are you saying that we're all just souls walking around without bodies? We know from Heb. 4:12 that man consists of a soul and a spirit, and experientially a body as well. We also know from Eccl. 12:7 that at death the body returns to the ground, and the spirit returns to God. And we know from Acts 2:31 that the soul also returns to the spirit world once separated from the body.

Heb 4:12 - Please, let us actually do a word study upon the words "soul" and "spirit" in scripture, and see how the Bible defines these. Mankind is made up of dust + breath = living being. That is 3. 2 parts in combination by the power of God making a 3rd when all is present. Remove either of the two components and where are you? Ceasing to be temporarily, except as written in Heaven.

Acts 2:31 - Again, the word "hell" there in the greek is "hades", and corresponds to the Hebrew Sheol. It simply means the "grave of all", iow that which we all return unto., dust. Let us do a word study on this.

Ecc 12:7 - Again, the word "spirit" needs to be defined by scripture. You are not that "spirit", it is "God's". it is His, that He breathed into the Dust to make you alive, a living being, living soul [Gen 2:7].

dysert said:
I'm not quite sure what point(s) you're trying to make by mashing together verses from Eccl., Rev., Gen., and Job, but I agree with you that Scripture does not contradict itself.

Read them again, for precept must be upon precept. You just quoted from Heb, Ecc and Acts. yet each of those does not support the "immortal soul/spirit" theology, but the Biblical definition of "sleep". Consider what they are actually saying.

dysert said:
Rev. 20 is the primary passage that teaches the Millennium. I don't know what you're saying is unscriptural. To answer your question, it's the 7 Last Bowls. (What's that have to do with anything?)

People that are A-Millennium deny "the Millennium" and say that the 'church reigns' [Roman Catholicismn doctrine, etc] now. Revelation 20 gives 6 specific times that there will indeed be the "millennium" to come [not on earth mind you].

The 7 last Plagues, what happens in them, and so doing to this earth? When is the New Heavens and the New Earth made, before or after the millennium? people attempt to say that they will reign upon this earth during the Millennium,, but it simply is not so, by very many texts and reasons of those texts themselves.

Leuko Petra · Apr 11, 2013

dysert said:
Are you saying that we're all just souls walking around without bodies? We know from Heb. 4:12 that man consists of a soul and a spirit, and experientially a body as well. We also know from Eccl. 12:7 that at death the body returns to the ground, and the spirit returns to God. And we know from Acts 2:31 that the soul also returns to the spirit world once separated from the body.

Thank you. Gave an ol' old Lutheran a 120v. a.c. kick-start for the day. Only wanted to place a Lutheran thought along with your valid response, i.e., Acts 2:31, I think Peter foresaw what David recorded in Ps.16, where in the case of David this was half fulfilled, namely only the clause that his soul would not be abandoned unto hades. In the case of Christ of course, both were fulfilled. Upon David's death, him, in his person, less sin and his body, entered heaven. Your Heb.4:12 was also excellent not that I'm anybody. Thanks to you folks, plural, again.

Notice the passages again, it says David is Dead and Buried and the Tomb was with them still. David is not ascended into the Heavens. It says David himself is dead, asleep. Other texts are clear that David "saw corruption", which means he is decomposing still, and will not be wakend out of sleep until the Last Day, in the first great resurrection [Rev 20, etc].

Hades is simply the grave of all, the destination that we return unto, the dust.

Again, re-read John 20:17. Jesus went nowhere in death, especially not to heaven [Paradise]. Again, read the other texts, that clearly says where Jesus was, that He was in the tomb, even as it is written "Where the Lord lay".

Luther himself preaches Soul Sleep, but most Lutherans today have gone back unto the Roman doctrine, that Luther repudiated.

PROPHECYKID · Apr 11, 2013

Questions123 said:
Hello

I would like to get a better understanding of the afterlife from a protestant/evangelical perspective and have many questions regarding such. My main objective is to get an entire outlining of what happens after death and the thereafter.

Firstly, when one dies, they enter into an incorporeal, unbodied state of consciousness (Hades)? And this consciousness is where the soul/personhood resides? And that this state is also separated between the righteous (Paradise) and unrighteous (Tararus)?

Is this so far correct?

I think you should ask yourself what the bible really teaches as opposed to what most people believe. The majority many times are wrong. What does the bible say about it. This is the question you need to ask and need to check out. Not what most people say. Of course, listen to the different views, but check the bible and see what it says.

My view is that firstly you need to understand life before you understand death. What did God do when he created man?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Most people believe that man contains a living soul. That's not what it says here. It says man became and was made a living soul. The New Testament agrees with this.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Last Adam here is Jesus Christ. The passage explains that all of us now are made after Adam and bare the image of Adam so we are souls, but at the second coming of God we shall bare the image of the heavenly and have a different body, a quickening spirit.

The teaching among the majorty of Christians is that when you die you don't actually die, but you live on the spirit form. However, that is now what the bible says happens.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Job was constantly depressed and speaks about Death a lot because many times he thought he was near death. Here is Job speaking.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

These scriptures tells us that when a man dies his spirit, ghost or the breath of life goes back to God who gave it and his body decays and goes back to the earth. Job also tells us that man is not raised up from his sleep or death until the heavens be no more (this is the second coming of Jesus).

Listen to the prophet Daniel.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Compare this with John:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Compare this with Paul:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is what Martha told Jesus concerning seeing Lazarus again:

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

In this situation Jesus was going to make an exception for Lazarus, but it was the believe and the biblical teaching that the dead will be raised at the second coming of Jesus and man does not go of floating somewhere until then. How do we know this? David is still in the grave!

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

This is a topic I encourage you to explore from a biblical perspective and not just what everyone else says.

Albion · Apr 11, 2013

Let's recap.

What is the denomination or denominational doctrine that is being discussed on this "Denomination-speciffc" forum thread?

Leuko Petra · Apr 11, 2013

Albion said:
Let's recap.

What is the denomination or denominational doctrine that is being discussed on this "Denomination-speciffc" forum thread?

At the moment, we are discussing, from the scriptures, the Biblical and Doctrinal position of all the Testimony of Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation on the State of the Dead, "soul sleep" in connection with what God stated in Genesis 2:17, "thou shalt surely die", [see also Ezekiel 18:4,20] mankind being a "living soul" [Genesis 2:7], which is a combined "dust of the earth" and "breath of life" of God [Genesis 2:7] which is "mortal" [Job 4:17] in comparison/opposition to the satanic/luciferian doctrine of "immortal soul/spirit" theology in connection with what he stated "Ye shall not surely die" [Genesis 3:4].

The Seventh Day Adventist movement holds to the scriptural and doctrinal position.

Albion · Apr 11, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
At the moment, we are discussing, from the scriptures, the Biblical and Doctrinal position of all the Testimony of Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation on the State of the Dead, "soul sleep" in connection with what God stated in Genesis 2:17, "thou shalt surely die", [see also Ezekiel 18:4,20] mankind being a "living soul" [Genesis 2:7], which is a combined "dust of the earth" and "breath of life" of God [Genesis 2:7] which is "mortal" [Job 4:17] in comparison/opposition to the satanic/luciferian doctrine of "immortal soul/spirit" theology in connection with what he stated "Ye shall not surely die" [Genesis 3:4].

The Seventh Day Adventist movement holds to the scriptural and doctrinal position.

So it's an investigation into the SDA's theology (with regard to those subjects).

OK. Carry on.

shturt678 · Apr 11, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
How can you believe "a"-"Millenialism", when the bible specifically teaches "the millennium":

....From the amillennial view, all the souls of the departed, from Adam forward to the end of time, including King David's are alive and well, either in heaven or in hell, not so well, all awaiting for Jn.5;28, 29, i.e., their new bodies to match their souls .....From a premillennial view, correct me if I'm wrong, IITim.3:16, the souls are snoozing until the end, or the beginning of a Jewish Millennial or something like that .... sorry, shouldn't be making fun ... I just forgot at this moment?

Leuko Petra · Apr 11, 2013

shturt678 said:
Leuko Petra said:

How can you believe "a"-"Millenialism", when the bible specifically teaches "the millennium":

....From the amillennial view, all the souls of the departed, from Adam forward to the end of time, including King David's are alive and well, either in heaven or in hell, not so well, all awaiting for Jn.5;28, 29, i.e., their new bodies to match their souls .....From a premillennial view, correct me if I'm wrong, IITim.3:16, the souls are snoozing until the end, or the beginning of a Jewish Millennial or something like that .... sorry, shouldn't be making fun ... I just forgot at this moment?

Click to expand...

They are only "alive in Christ" Jesus, which is why they are "asleep", and not in the 2nd death. However, those which have died and not resurrected, have no consciousness, they know nothing, nor can they do anything, they have temporarily ceased activity:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

It would not matter, how much one may say that the "dead" are conscious, but they go against a plain "thus saith the Lord" in doing it. In fact, they would have to overthorw all of the Scriptures to continue to teach it. This is why Martin Luther himself abandoned it and preached "Soul sleep" to counter Rome's and satans theological error, but the Lutherans today, simply do not care and do not study their own history, for if they did, they would be terrified at what it has become - more and more like Romanism, their mother - as foretold. They also do not realize what that does to the Cross of Christ Jesus, nor to the Gospel, nor to the open door it allows for satan to enter.

Here is what Jesus said about entering into Heaven:

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. John 14:3

How then, according to these two passages are we, Christians, to enter Heaven and to be with Jesus?

Shall any have forgotten that Jesus ascended into Heaven as a man, "flesh and bones" [Luke 24:39]. Heaven, and the beings therein are as real as Washington DC, not ethereal, intangible, incorporeal. Go back to Genesis and see where the garden of Eden on earth came from - you are looking for a very specific word.

shturt678 · Apr 12, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
shturt678 said:

They are only "alive in Christ" Jesus, which is why they are "asleep", and not in the 2nd death. However, those which have died and not resurrected, have no consciousness, they know nothing, nor can they do anything, they have temporarily ceased activity:

Click to expand...

O.K., "alive in Christ" are "asleep" here, but what about....

Shall any have forgotten that Jesus ascended into Heaven as a man, "flesh and bones" [Luke 24:39]. Heaven, and the beings therein are as real as Washington DC, not ethereal, intangible, incorporeal. Go back to Genesis and see where the garden of Eden on earth came from - you are looking for a very specific word.

Click to expand...

..."the beings therein are as real, etc." I thought, they were "asleep"?

Albion · Apr 12, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
How then, according to these two passages are we, Christians, to enter Heaven and to be with Jesus?

Shall any have forgotten that Jesus ascended into Heaven as a man, "flesh and bones" [Luke 24:39]. Heaven, and the beings therein are as real as Washington DC, not ethereal, intangible, incorporeal.

No, it's clear from Scripture that the angels in Heaven are not possessed of physical bodies...and neither are we after physical death.

shturt678 · Apr 12, 2013

Albion said:
No, it's clear from Scripture that the angels in Heaven are not possessed of physical bodies...and neither are we after physical death.

Leuko Petra · Apr 12, 2013

shturt678 said:
..."the beings therein are as real, etc." I thought, they were "asleep"?

I was speaking of the Angels, the 24 Elders [which aren't human], Four Living Creatures, and the Hosts of the unfallen worlds, and God in the second portion.

Understanding the afterlife from a protestant/evangelical perspective

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