The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
— Romans 8:16-17
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Because God has decreed it, it is certain, as good as done.— Romans 8:28-30
The question I have is why Paul writes: "He also glorified" (v.30). They are not yet glorfied, right? (v.17) Then why past tense?
In Romans 8:16-17, it says: that we may... be glorified with Him. For example: I can say: “If I ride my bike tomorrow, I may be happy.” This is not a gurantee of some past event. The word “may” is in the passage. In addition, the verse says that those who are glorified are those believers who suffer with Him (Christ). So being glorified is not a past tense use for Romans 8:16-17. For if I am being satisified by eating a good meal, that does not mean I am talking in the past tense (even though the verb is in the past tense). The word “be” or “being” changes the verb to a present tense thing.
All that was necessary for our justification--In Romans 8:28-30: Paul is writing from an end perspective. He is saying that those believers who end up being justified in the end, they will also be glorified. I believe Paul is referring to a believer not just being justified at one point in their life, but Paul is referring to a believer continually being faithful to the Lord their whole life. Faithful. Think about that word for a moment. For it derives from the word faith. For if we have proper and true faith that God desires, we will be justified in the end when we die.
James is saying that we are justified by a faith that is not alone, it's accompanied by works, but it is only the faith, apart from works, that justifies (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
These works that James mentions is called the “work of faith” that Paul refers to in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11. For the “work of faith” is a part of the faith. Yes, our faith starts off as a belief and trust in Jesus as our Savior, and the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. That is where faith begins. But it is not where faith ends. The journey of faith continues.
Romans 8:28-30 does not state that.Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” by God working through the believer when they obey God's Word (the Holy Bible). For if we live out our faith by obeying God according to His Word, and we stay faithful unto death, we will be saved. For he that endures to the end shall be saved. This is what Romans 8:28-30 is saying.
That is not what Paul teaches. Paul teaches that we are justified by faith, when we savingly believe,If we employ the proper faith in this life up until the point we die, we will be justified
It is conditioned on true faith, which is obedient and perseveres.by the sacrifice of Christ, and His resurrection, and as a result, we will be glorified.
It will then be a done deal.
But it's conditional.
Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
So we cannot walk after the flesh or sin but we must walk after the Spirit in order to not be under the Condemnation.
Romans 8:13 says that if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally).
If we live for sin, we will die spiritually. If we put away sin out of our lives by the Spirit, we will live eternally. We will be justified if we stay faithful until death.
Look at the context inside of the passage you quote. It speaks in context of those who are glorified as those who love God (See: verse 28, i.e. Romans 8:28).
Those with true faith, God justifies in the beginning, not the end, and gives his Holy Spirit to indwell them to effect their perseverance.Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). So Paul is referring to the believer who loves God by obeying Him and this is the one who will be justified in the end.
It's a call to all New Covenant believers to love God and stay faithful to Him. It's a call to all New Covenant believers to stay faithful so that we may be justified, and if we are justified by the Lord in the end, we will be glorified.
No, as in Romans 11:2, Paul is simply referring to saints of old in former times who loved God and were known by Him.Wrong. He was writing about all those who have accepted Christ as their savior.
Well, what I see is that it's all about righteousness:You might be closer to the correct reading of that chapter than you think.
Paul is discussing the nation of Israel and the revelation of the Christ, in this letter to the Romans.
The three chapters after chapter eight continues the argument that Paul started in chapter two.
It is not easy to truly see the subject of Paul's letter to the Romans. I don't think many folk can see this.
Your correct but to be even more precise; Paul is explaining in detail why Israel failed to achieve that righteousness.Well, what I see is that it's about righteousness:
1-3 -- no one has it, neither Gentile nor Jew, all are unrighteous, all righteousness is from God
3-4 -- righteousness in justification, imputed from Christ by faith apart from works
5-8 -- righteousness in sanctification, through life in the Holy Spirit
9-11 -- God's righteousness in rejecting Israel
12-15-- our practice of righteousness
16 -- closing
Those 'He foreknew' were the Jews.No, as in Romans 11:2, Paul is simply referring to saints of old in former times who loved God and were known by Him.
They were foreknown (previously known) by God, as in they had an intimate personal relationship with God in the past.
We tend to look at it as God's knowledge, but it's more than knowledge. He knew them as friends
Many scholars in the past held to this view, but not so much today
We know from observation of God’s past dealings with those who love Him that He has a way of working things out for the greatest good.
He is saying we know what is true of God today by observing what He has done in the past for those who loved Him.
29 For those whom He foreknew,
Notice the shift from the present to the past tense.
Right, but that's only chps 3, 9-11. That leaves 12 chps for other treatment of righteousness, yes?Your correct but to be even more precise; Paul is explaining in detail why Israel failed to achieve that righteousness.
Right, but not the whole book, right?Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Romans is a narration on the failure of Israel.
Two kinds of righteousness in Romans:In addition, the last line of your post could be dismissed, '12-15-- our practice of righteousness'.
Righteousness is not earned by us, it is a free gift, we already have the righteousness of Christ.
Hello again Zoidar, since it's short, let's go verse by verse, beginning where you began with Romans 8:16.
Romans 8The only thing that I'm aware of that complicates getting to the true meaning of this verse is whether the Spirit "testifies with" or "testifies to" our spirit. Beyond that minor question (I believe that it is both, BTW), v16 seems pretty straight forward, does it not? Testifies with and we are children are both in the present tense, just FYI.
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.
So, what is it about v16 that is unclear to you?
Thanks!
--David
No, as in Romans 11:2, Paul is simply referring to saints of old in former times who loved God and were known by Him.
They were foreknown (previously known) by God, as in they had an intimate personal relationship with God in the past.
We tend to look at it as God's knowledge, but it's more than knowledge. He knew them as friends
Many scholars in the past held to this view, but not so much today
We know from observation of God’s past dealings with those who love Him that He has a way of working things out for the greatest good.
He is saying we know what is true of God today by observing what He has done in the past for those who loved Him.
29 For those whom He foreknew,
Notice the shift from the present to the past tense.
Those 'He foreknew' were the Jews.
We can prove that those God 'foreknew' were the Jews with the following verse.
Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
Because God has decreed it, it is certain, as good as done.
Well, weren't they conformed in the same way we are? By the testing of their faith, bringing perseverance? Does Jesus being the firstborn of many brethren change the tense? Paul can be hard to understand I'll grant you that. But he spends a lot of time looking backward at Israel and the saints in order to point forward at how God has reworked election. It's a repeated theme in his writing.I like this view... but how were these saints of the past conformed to the image of Jesus? How does that fit? It also says Jesus were to be the firstborn among many brethren.
Because he was talking about the patriarchs. It's not about us, except as a promise of God's faithfulness.
Let's take a look at it.Might be so, but Is there maybe an understanding that fits better?
Is Paul maybe talking about those Christians that have died, since they have been glorified?
All predestination, including of those future, occurred in conjunction with creation.Something new popped out to me, as often happens even if you've read a particular scripture several times.
It sounds to me like 8:28-30 is talking about those whom God predestined in the past such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, the Judges and the Prophets.
Yeah, ok John Piper.Let's take a look at it.
"Foreknew" is God's "foreknowledge" here, not knowledge of deceased believers.
God's foreknowledge, contrary to popular opinion (e.g., post #11), is not God looking down the halls of time and seeing in advance what man is going to do.
Scripture presents God's foreknowledge as knowing in advance what he is going to do.
Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."
Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them)."
See Isaiah 37:26; Acts 2:23, 4:28.
God knows in advance (foreknowledge) what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.
So those in Romans 8:29-30 are the elect, those whom he foreknew (decreed their predestination) from the beginning of time, all of them, OT and NT.
John Piper says the same? News to me. . .interesting.Yeah, ok John Piper.
Scripture settles its meaning for me in Acts 15:18; Isaiah 48:3; Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 45:21.There are other interpretations.
The word for foreknowledge can mean more than knowing beforehand.
Well, weren't they conformed in the same way we are? By the testing of their faith, bringing perseverance? Does Jesus being the firstborn of many brethren change the tense? Paul can be hard to understand I'll grant you that. But he spends a lot of time looking backward at Israel and the saints in order to point forward at how God has reworked election. It's a repeated theme in his writing.
You're not, but I can assure you all of them are also answered there in harmony with all Scripture, if you are willing to take it as its word, understood in harmony with all Scripture.The more I study the Bible the more questions I get. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
You're not, but I can assure you all of them are also answered there in harmony with all Scripture, if you are willing to take it as its word, understood in harmony with all Scripture.
Short abridged form:You are Reformed, right? How did you become Reformed?
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