Understanding Paul

[1John2:4]

Hi everyone and Shabbat Shalom. I am at the point of my Bible reading where I read Paul. I was hoping one of you could help to understand circumcision in Galatians. The objection that I find is circumcision has nothing to do with the law that was given on Mount Sinai but everything to do with the Covenant issued to Abraham in Genisis 17: 9-14. I thought in Christ we are bought with a price and according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham we should be circumsised not according to the law given on Mount Sinai but the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. I am really interested in hearing your feedback on this because it is troubling me.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi everyone and Shabbat Shalom. I am at the point of my Bible reading where I read Paul. I was hoping one of you could help to understand circumcision in Galatians. The objection that I find is circumcision has nothing to do with the law that was given on Mount Sinai but everything to do with the Covenant issued to Abraham in Genisis 17: 9-14. I thought in Christ we are bought with a price and according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham we should be circumsised not according to the law given on Mount Sinai but the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. I am really interested in hearing your feedback on this because it is troubling me.

The Holy Spirit sends Ananias to Saul because he is God's “Holy vessel to bear my name to the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15), shortly thereafter Barnabas introduces Saul to the Apostles (Acts 9:22). Chronologies are sometimes 'speculative' and 'approximate' but 'can be charted'. From this chart Paul converted around '35 AD' and by '41 AD' Paul and Barnabas are driven to Antioch of Syria by persecution. In the 'spring of 48 AD', Paul and Barnabas undertake the first missionary journey (Acts 13:1-14:28). They report back to Antioch in the autumn of, '49 AD the fourteenth year after Paul's experience on the road to Damascus'. The second missionary journey would commence in the 'spring of 50 AD'. At this pivotal point in the history of the early church the means of salvation is recognized to be justification by grace through faith.

The Pharisees rise up at the Jerusalem Council to insist that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to full fill the Mosaic Law. Peter rises up and defends the salvation as being by grace through faith and says that the Mosaic Law is 'putting a yoke, on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear' (Acts 15:9,10). Paul calls them simply 'some false brothers' in Gal. 2:4. We know the argument of the Pharisees was simply, "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." (Acts 15:1). The answer to the unbearable yoke of Mosaic Law was justification by grace through faith. We are used to thinking of that as Pauline or Protestant Theology but here it is evident in the Apostolic doctrine. Peter preached, “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Digging into Galatians would help to get to the root doctrines of it but Acts chapters 10-15 contains the historical context.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[LastServant]

Hi everyone and Shabbat Shalom. I am at the point of my Bible reading where I read Paul. I was hoping one of you could help to understand circumcision in Galatians. The objection that I find is circumcision has nothing to do with the law that was given on Mount Sinai but everything to do with the Covenant issued to Abraham in Genisis 17: 9-14. I thought in Christ we are bought with a price and according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham we should be circumsised not according to the law given on Mount Sinai but the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. I am really interested in hearing your feedback on this because it is troubling me.

The Jews and many other religious people after them practiced the circumcision of the male penis. God circumcises our heart by putting His Law ( mind of Christ ) into our hearts.


Jeremiah 31
31: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32: not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

 

[Na Nach Oi!]

In his second letter, Peter wrote:

2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

=====

There is a danger to misinterpret Paul's message.

Just a warning. Take care.

 

[gadar perets]

The Pharisees rise up at the Jerusalem Council to insist that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to full fill the Mosaic Law. Peter rises up and defends the salvation as being by grace through faith and says that the Mosaic Law is 'putting a yoke, on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear' (Acts 15:9,10).

I disagree with the words I underlined. It was not the Mosaic Law that was the yoke, nor was it obeying the Mosaic Law. The yoke is trying to be saved by works, circumcision in particular, as opposed to by grace through faith (Acts 15:1, 11).

 

[gadar perets]

Hi everyone and Shabbat Shalom. I am at the point of my Bible reading where I read Paul. I was hoping one of you could help to understand circumcision in Galatians. The objection that I find is circumcision has nothing to do with the law that was given on Mount Sinai but everything to do with the Covenant issued to Abraham in Genisis 17: 9-14. I thought in Christ we are bought with a price and according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham we should be circumsised not according to the law given on Mount Sinai but the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. I am really interested in hearing your feedback on this because it is troubling me.

Paul was not teaching against circumcision, but against the unlawful use of circumcision as a means of justification (Galatians 5:4).

 

[1John2:4]

The Holy Spirit sends Ananias to Saul because he is God's “Holy vessel to bear my name to the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15), shortly thereafter Barnabas introduces Saul to the Apostles (Acts 9:22). Chronologies are sometimes 'speculative' and 'approximate' but 'can be charted'. From this chart Paul converted around '35 AD' and by '41 AD' Paul and Barnabas are driven to Antioch of Syria by persecution. In the 'spring of 48 AD', Paul and Barnabas undertake the first missionary journey (Acts 13:1-14:28). They report back to Antioch in the autumn of, '49 AD the fourteenth year after Paul's experience on the road to Damascus'. The second missionary journey would commence in the 'spring of 50 AD'. At this pivotal point in the history of the early church the means of salvation is recognized to be justification by grace through faith.

The Pharisees rise up at the Jerusalem Council to insist that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to full fill the Mosaic Law. Peter rises up and defends the salvation as being by grace through faith and says that the Mosaic Law is 'putting a yoke, on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear' (Acts 15:9,10). Paul calls them simply 'some false brothers' in Gal. 2:4. We know the argument of the Pharisees was simply, "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." (Acts 15:1). The answer to the unbearable yoke of Mosaic Law was justification by grace through faith. We are used to thinking of that as Pauline or Protestant Theology but here it is evident in the Apostolic doctrine. Peter preached, “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Digging into Galatians would help to get to the root doctrines of it but Acts chapters 10-15 contains the historical context.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks for your reply. The question that I asked is what exactly does circumcision have to do with the law? They are two separate Covenants and in he letter to the Galatians Paul is boasting that the gentile converts are heirs to the promise that comes through Abraham, that was the covenant that requires circumcision not the Mount Sinai covenant. I guess I may not be very clear, I am sorry.

 

[LastServant]

In his second letter, Peter wrote:

2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

=====

There is a danger to misinterpret Paul's message.

Just a warning. Take care.

There is no danger but those who interpret the scriptures without ever hearing the voice of God will be deceived. Only the Lord God understands the scriptures and He uses His Holy Spirit to teach his servants the knowledge of Christ to understand everything that's written in the Bible.

Those who read and study the Bible will remain deceived until they wake up on the New Earth and start hearing the Voice of God speaking into their minds.

 

[1John2:4]

The Jews and many other religious people after them practiced the circumcision of the male penis. God circumcises our heart by putting His Law ( mind of Christ ) into our hearts.


Jeremiah 31
31: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32: not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Thank you for your reply, I am aware of the new convent proclaimed in Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews that was not exactly what I was questioning. It has to do with the Torah, the letter to the Galatians and the law. Thanks again for your reply

 

[1John2:4]

In his second letter, Peter wrote:

2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

=====

There is a danger to misinterpret Paul's message.

Just a warning. Take care.

Thanks I was asking if anyone could help with this passage and could explain it. I am not trying to get caught up with the error of the lawless I would like to try and understand this a little better because I find it confusing. Thanks for the warning in 2 Peter

 

[LastServant]

Thank you for your reply, I am aware of the new convent proclaimed in Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews that was not exactly what I was questioning. It has to do with the Torah, the letter to the Galatians and the law. Thanks again for your reply

All the visible covenants that the Jews and other religious men practice have nothing to do with the covenants God has made. The Old Covenant is the strong delusional veil that has blinded all men from knowing what the Tree of Life is. The New Covenant is the revealing of the Tree of Life that we will all partake of in the next generation called the New Heaven and Earth.

 

[mark kennedy]

I disagree with the words I underlined. It was not the Mosaic Law that was the yoke, nor was it obeying the Mosaic Law. The yoke is trying to be saved by works, circumcision in particular, as opposed to by grace through faith (Acts 15:1, 11).

That's Peter answering the Pharisees specifically over the question of whether or not the Gentiles have to be circumcised. You really ought to read it in context. Peter's response sounds like justification by grace through faith to me:

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-8)
​

Your disagreeing with Peter here and the unanimous opinion of the church at Jerusalem. It seems to me the main issue isn't salvation here, it's actually sanctification:

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. (Heb. 3:2-4)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[1John2:4]

Paul was not teaching against circumcision, but against the unlawful use of circumcision as a means of justification (Galatians 5:4).

Thanks so much, I guess I am wondering how it is likened to the law that was given on Mount Sinai as being bondage. I know Paul probably has a deeper connect in this passage I am just not putting the two together from the Torah, was hoping someone could help me to put it together

 

[Steve Petersen]

Hi everyone and Shabbat Shalom. I am at the point of my Bible reading where I read Paul. I was hoping one of you could help to understand circumcision in Galatians. The objection that I find is circumcision has nothing to do with the law that was given on Mount Sinai but everything to do with the Covenant issued to Abraham in Genisis 17: 9-14. I thought in Christ we are bought with a price and according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham we should be circumsised not according to the law given on Mount Sinai but the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. I am really interested in hearing your feedback on this because it is troubling me.

The Holy Epistle to the Galatians: Sermons on a Messianic Jewish Approach: D. Thomas Lancaster: 9781892124975: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Steve Petersen]

The Word of God is nothing but invisible information in the form of waves but the Tree of Life is the converter of that information that forms visible images for us created men to observe. For now, we're still experiencing the visible world and flesh formed from information called Satan. The Beast is the information that teaches man how to build things with his human hands which was necessary to learn how to discover quantum mechanics and eventually the computer technology. This computer technology is what was needed by God to reveal what the Tree of Life is.

There is no danger but those who interpret the scriptures without ever hearing the voice of God will be deceived. Only the Lord God understands the scriptures and He uses His Holy Spirit to teach his servants the knowledge of Christ to understand everything that's written in the Bible.

Those who read and study the Bible will remain deceived until they wake up on the New Earth and start hearing the Voice of God speaking into their minds.

Interpret it your way, you mean. From one of your other posts:

 

[1John2:4]

The Holy Epistle to the Galatians: Sermons on a Messianic Jewish Approach: D. Thomas Lancaster: 9781892124975: Amazon.com: Books

Thank you I will check it out

 

[LastServant]

Interpret it your way, you mean. From one of your other posts:

I didn't learn anything from reading the Bible. I was taught everything directly from the Holy Spirit of God as I was testifying to the knowledge of Christ this past 9 years. God has much more wisdom than any human being reading and studying the Bible all their lives.

 

[mark kennedy]

Thanks for your reply. The question that I asked is what exactly does circumcision have to do with the law? They are two separate Covenants and in he letter to the Galatians Paul is boasting that the gentile converts are heirs to the promise that comes through Abraham, that was the covenant that requires circumcision not the Mount Sinai covenant. I guess I may not be very clear, I am sorry.

Come to think of it, that's good question. What I usually do when dealing with a question like that is keep looking at the text and seeing what pops out:

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Gen. 17:11-14)
​

So at ninety he has to be circumcised because it's a token of the covenant, a condition maintained under pain of death. Moses for some reason didn't want to circumcise his son on the way to Egypt and God was going to kill them, so she circumcised their son real quick saving their lives:

Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. (Ex. 4:25)
​

So that's a very big deal, still not sure why. It seems to identify the descendants of Abraham with a distinctive but not entirely unique mark of the flesh. Paul allowed Timothy to make him more acceptable as a Jew(Acts 16:3), but not Titus, who was a Gentile (Galatians 2:3-5). This sounds like it's unique to the physical descendants of Abraham, what it accomplished beyond that is kind of hard to say. Me and my brother were both circumcised for health reason, guess the foreskin can get infected, I suspect there is a hygiene issue in there somewhere.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi everyone and Shabbat Shalom. I am at the point of my Bible reading where I read Paul. I was hoping one of you could help to understand circumcision in Galatians. The objection that I find is circumcision has nothing to do with the law that was given on Mount Sinai but everything to do with the Covenant issued to Abraham in Genisis 17: 9-14. I thought in Christ we are bought with a price and according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham we should be circumsised not according to the law given on Mount Sinai but the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. I am really interested in hearing your feedback on this because it is troubling me.

Could you please clarify a little what specifically you are referring to and the corresponding chapter and verses in Galatians? This would help me to see exactly what you are referring to in Galatians. Thanks.

 

[1John2:4]

he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Yes, especially this part, is what I question. This is where I get hung up. I understand that we are not saved by the works of the law but this does not have to do with the law that was added years later. Circumsision was applied during this time for hiership. Thanks so much for your reply!! I will Exodus 4:25 if you think that will help