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Understanding adversarial religious figures

AV1611VET

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Why are goats seen as Satanic?
It's bcause of the story of the scapegoat in the Bible.

And an EXCELLENT read on sheep is a book called, A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23, by Phillip Keller.
 
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Zoness

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It's bcause of the story of the scapegoat in the Bible.

And an EXCELLENT read on sheep is a book called, A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23, by Phillip Keller.

Thanks for the recommendation!
 
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AV1611VET

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Thanks for the recommendation!
You're most welcome!

One story he told that really impressed me was that, when a shepherd wants to increase his flock, he will take them out where wild sheep are grazing and let them graze next to them.

Later in the day, when he calls his flock home, some of the wild sheep will come trotting back among them.

Jesus, our Great Shepherd, did the same thing with His flock ...

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
 
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Chesterton

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I think ideas of bad existing is a different trajectory than are adversarial figures. For instance the image of ones ego causing bad things to happen does not make the ego an adversary.
My favorite line from the science fiction novel Dune is "Each man is a little war". I think the ego can be an adversary.
 
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TheOldWays

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My favorite line from the science fiction novel Dune is "Each man is a little war". I think the ego can be an adversary.

Good point. The great work of anyone i believe is to master themselves.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The problem here is the 19th century rejection of a Natural Order. Before Nietschean Supermen decried the herd mentality, it would not have been thought a negative trait to conform to the majority or follow authority. The idea was that as there is a natural order, a Way, or a Stoic Fate, it would be foolish to oppose it. The idea was to accept your situation, as the majority of mankind does, and in this way achieve harmony.

The Enlightenment took this further, by positting Social Contracts and their ilk, as they still acknowledged a Natural Law which man is beholden too. This is where Voltaire's "If there was no God, he'd have to be invented" lies. It is only once man 'goes it alone', rejects value as only subjectively ascribed, that a Herd Mentality, Sheeple, becomes pejorative. Now it is about the Superman rising above the artificial fetters of social forms and moral order, and to choose his own way. Where to 'be yourself' is a positive virtue. I don't know about you, but 'myself' is often abhorrent.

This has created an idea that rejecting authority, of rebelling, is in and of itself a positive trait - regardless of what is rebelled against. You must 'think for yourself', not critically review the intellectual tradition and stand on the shoulders of those that came before. If we choose to adhere to 'old-fashioned' notions, people are seen as reactionary or indoctrinated or what have you, making a shibboleth of what is novel and contrariness. This is the impulse that made Blake lift Milton's Satan to a Hero, of the Hipster eating Ethiopian instead of a burger, of making the New better than the Old. The fallacious idea that change is always progress, that we are moving forward to some dialectic paradise by cutting off the branches everything is sitting upon.

Perhaps related is the idea of Bad Faith, that we fail ourselves and achieve existential angst by mirroring ourselves in other people. If society is merely 'Sheeple', then I can embrace my 'flaws', and make them into virtues - as I only ascribe my own subjective value after all. We only don't do so from social sanction, Sartre's Hell is other people, so thus making my own desires and wants paramount. This is the Do as thou Wilt of Crowley, a more Satanic viewpoint I have never heard before.

For Satan tempted Eve by becoming 'as gods', meaning self-sufficient and not dependant upon the greater - wherein lies Pride, Selfishness and inability to differentiate Good action from Evil. For then All things are Lawful, if I can decide what is the Law, as Ivan Karamazov said - hence Dostoyevsky had the Devil come calling in his delirium.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It's bcause of the story of the scapegoat in the Bible.

And an EXCELLENT read on sheep is a book called, A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23, by Phillip Keller.
I disagree. The Scapegoat is a precursor of Christ's Atonement.

I'd rather ascribe it to the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. There is also Pan and Silvanus, semi-goat Libertine gods of classical times. They literally embody many ideas of what came to be considered Sin - such as druken revelry and orgiastic goings on. They certainly played a significant part in the development of demonic imagery, I would think.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I wrote this on Satan in another thread:


To add specifically here, Peter was told to "get thee behind me, Satan" and Judas called a devil. Our failures are our own responsibility. We are beholden to our own sins.

This is why Dostoyevsky's treatment in Brothers Karamazov is so good. The Devil literally tells Ivan that he wants to "light a candle in Church like a merchant's wife". He says he wants to do good, so 'writes in the critical section'. For evil is not a real thing in itself, but a corruption of good. Even utterly evil acts are done for a 'good'. The murderer is chasing an inheritance or a feeling, the Holocaust or Gulags for a presumed future utopia. It is the ends justifies the means, in a way.
This is why an absolute dualism fails. Evil is an attempt to get a good thing by a short-cut, or try to gain something that is not yours to gain.

The Devil might be real that Ivan is seeing or conversing with, or might just be his own lowest and stupidest impulses. He tells Ivan things he knows, but also seems to invent things. The Devil himself is trying to get Ivan to believe he is real, by supplying reasoning for the latter and why he might not be. Man doesn't want a devil, for he wants to be his own god. "I know it is reactionary to believe in God, but surely you can believe in the devil?".
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I wrote this on Satan in another thread:

"My dear friend, above all things I want to behave like a gentleman and to be recognized as such,” the visitor began in an excess of deprecating and simple-hearted pride, typical of a poor relation. “I am poor, but ... I won't say very honest, but ... it's an axiom generally accepted in society that I am a fallen angel. I certainly can't conceive how I can ever have been an angel. If I ever was, it must have been so long ago that there's no harm in forgetting it. Now I only prize the reputation of being a gentlemanly person and live as I can, trying to make myself agreeable. I love men genuinely, I've been greatly calumniated! Here when I stay with you from time to time, my life gains a kind of reality and that's what I like most of all." - The Brothers Karamazov, by Fyodor Dostoyevsky.

The scene is written ambigiously, that the devil might be real or only Ivan's hallucination, an external entity or an internal creation - or perhaps both.
 
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AV1611VET

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"... it's an axiom generally accepted in society that I am a fallen angel."
And according to Fyodor Dostoyevsky, what did said visitor do to warrant such a moniker?

I don't think this Fyodor Dostoyevsky realized that angels are a class of created beings outside the realm of humans.

If I was a fallen angel, I'd be ticked.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Adversarial figures in dualist (and quasi-dualist) world views have the pretty straightforward function of explaining the fact that things go wrong all the time in spite of the supposed presence of an all-good, all-just deity.
So when proto-Judaism went from "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil" to "God is all good and just, and not responsible for any evil", it was only natural to introduce a new evildoer.

Judaism proper eventually figured out that the whole concept of a "fallen angel" or supernatural enemy of God does not gel with monotheism, so their version of Satan is neither fallen nor God's adversary, but an enemy of MAN: God's quality tester, so to speak.

Christianity and its descendants stuck to the (possibly Zoroastrian-inspired) formula of a genuine rebellion in heaven, however, even if it makes little sense in the face of God's omnipotence.
 
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AV1611VET

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Adversarial figures in dualist (and quasi-dualist) world views have the pretty straightforward function of explaining the fact that things go wrong all the time in spite of the supposed presence of an all-good, all-just deity.
How does "all-good, all-just" prevent things from going wrong all the time?

That's like saying it is Greg Mathis' job to stop crime.

And what do you mean the "adversarial figure" has the function of explaining it?

Are you suggesting it is Satan's job to explain why things go wrong?
 
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dlamberth

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I think the ego can be an adversary.
What makes our ego so different from other creatures on Earth may be the consequences of being conscious. Is consciousness the true adversary? The Biblical myth story of Adam and Eve's fall seems to head in that direction.
 
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Chesterton

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What makes our ego so different from other creatures on Earth may be the consequences of being conscious. Is consciousness the true adversary? The Biblical myth story of Adam and Eve's fall seems to head in that direction.
I think human consciousness enables us to know good and evil, and to be able to choose to do good or evil in the way animals can't. So I wouldn't say it is the adversary, but it's a tool which makes us aware of the potential for evil, while enabling us with the ability to choose evil.
 
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Eyes wide Open

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My religion is my life, so no, there are no adversarial figures, only aspects of my own personality that can be an obstruction, or my own internal dialogue and fears (negative self talk) that can create an essence where I become my own adversary, holding me back from connecting and expressing myself fully.


The way I see it, Satan, the devil, are descriptive words relating to early psychology and our desire to understand ourselves. Those words were probably of more benefit in their original language with the applied teaching than they are today.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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How does "all-good, all-just" prevent things from going wrong all the time?
Think about it.
You are all-powerful and all-knowing.
You design a universe.
Don't you think said universe would be *exactly* what you want it to be, instead of a battleground where a significant portion of everything is falling apart and very much NOT what you want and intend?

In other words, if there was an all-powerful deity, and said deity didn't want parasitic worms that eat the eyes of children to exist, then said worms would not exist.
The ancient Israelites were very unsentimental about this. Their God created good and evil, and even getting on his good side was a mixed blessing.
In a way, modern Jews are, too, because to them, Satan is an agent of God, not His adversary.

That's like saying it is Greg Mathis' job to stop crime.
I didn't even know who Greg Mathis is until I googled him, but really, you could have named anyone here. If Greg Mathis knew of every crime that was happening (potentially even before it happened), had the power to prevent it from happening or to completely eliminate the harm done to the victim, and yet did nothing except punish the perpetrator at some later point, he'd at the VERY least be charged with denial of assistance, potentially even abetting.

And what do you mean the "adversarial figure" has the function of explaining it?

Are you suggesting it is Satan's job to explain why things go wrong?
You really *are* literally-minded, aren't you? He's not explaining it, he's the explanation: "Bad things happen to good people" and "God loves us, wants to protect us and is all-powerful" clash? "Satan did it!"
 
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AV1611VET

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Jane, are you having trouble remembering what you said?

Let me refresh your memory:
Adversarial figures in dualist (and quasi-dualist) world views have the pretty straightforward function of explaining the fact that things go wrong all the time in spite of the supposed presence of an all-good, all-just deity.
Then when I respond to your post as you wrote it:
How does "all-good, all-just" prevent things from going wrong all the time?
You switch the premises:
Think about it.
You are all-powerful and all-knowing.
What gives here?

I'd like to know how the presence of an all-good, all-just deity means that things should be having the "pretty straightforward function of explaining the fact that things go wrong all the time."

Suppose said deity didn't want to explain it? what then?

And it's obvious to me you're not talking about JEHOVAH here, as you said "adversarial figure."

So you must be referring to Satan, in my opinion.

And Satan is not a deity, he is a fallen angel.

I'm confused here with what it is you want.
 
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