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Unclean and hateful birds

Pamelav

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I've seen similar things in other places which I do not know where, but in Rev. 18:2 after Babylon has fallen:
'And he cried out with a loud voice,"Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird."' Just what does that mean exactly. Wish I could pinpoint other scriptures right now.
Well what is with those birds anyway. I thought I did a Internet search once and came up with nothing really, but maybe I should look again, I could be wrong.
 

Soyeong

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Leviticus 11:13-19 “You are to detest these birds. They must not be eaten because they are detestable: the eagle,[a] the bearded vulture, the black vulture,[c] 14 the kite,[d] any kind of falcon,[e] 15 every kind of raven, 16 the ostrich,[f] the short-eared owl,[g] the gull,[h] any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant,[j] the long-eared owl,[k] 18 the white[l] owl, the desert owl,[m] the osprey,[n] 19 the stork,[o] any kind of heron,[p] the hoopoe, and the bat.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I've always considered the Old Testament "dietary laws" were health based, and not a matter of "religion".

There's a summary of health risks associated with eating various "unclean" animals, fish and birds in the attached article.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-deception-unclean_animals_pig_fish_mammals

The author didn't go into much detail about "unclean birds", but simply made the comment "All birds that eat other animals and do not have a crop are considered unclean."

It's easy to see why a vulture might be unclean. It's a carrion eater, and it must be loaded with bacteria inside and out. The eagle drops dead animals in its nest. And I suppose other carnivorous birds would have similar problems with contamination.

At the bottom of the above article is another reference - http://amazingdiscoveries.org/C-deception-diet_unclean_clean_law_Bible
It's worth clicking on this link also to get a bit more detail.
 
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Soyeong

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I guess I just thought it meant something different. It's a after Christ here, so those dietary laws shouldn't be valid anymore, and it says a 'prison' of every unclean bird.

The fact Revelation talks about clean and unclean animals along with other prophetic books is evidence that those dietary laws are still valid. In 1 Peter 1:14-16, we are told to have a holy conduct, and then verse 16 quotes from Leviticus 11:44-45, where it talks about God's dietary laws as part of what it means to have a holy conduct.
 
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Pamelav

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The fact Revelation talks about clean and unclean animals along with other prophetic books is evidence that those dietary laws are still valid. In 1 Peter 1:14-16, we are told to have a holy conduct, and then verse 16 quotes from Leviticus 11:44-45, where it talks about God's dietary laws as part of what it means to have a holy conduct.

In the new testement the Apostle Paul says that everything created by God is good, and is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. There are some other verses in there. Are you taking the old testement laws over the new ones in Christ?
 
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Soyeong

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In the new testement the Apostle Paul says that everything created by God is good, and is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer. There are some other verses in there.

In regard to 1 Timothy 4, are those teaching obedience to God's law really giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1)? Is obeying God departing from the faith (4:1)? Would such teaching be considered lies and hypocrisy (4:2)? Are the same teaching others not to marry (4:3)? What things are stated to be consecrated by the word of God and declared to be food and to be received in thanksgiving (4:4-5)? Is Leviticus 11 no longer good doctrine (4:6)? Are God's commands old wives fables (4:7)? Are God's commands profane? (4:7) Are God's commands in Leviticus 11 not Godliness (4:7)? Is Leviticus 11 no longer Scripture and thus no longer instruction in righteousness or a basis for rebuking and correcting (2 Timothy 3:16)? If you think that 1 Timothy 4:3-5 is abolishing the teachings of Leviticus 11, then answering these questions becomes problematic.

2 Peter 3:14-18 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

In other words, Paul letters plus being ignorant and unstable equals the error of breaking God's law.

1 Timothy 4:3-5 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

What does it mean to know the truth in verse 3? God's law, which includes dietary restrictions, is declared by Scripture to be the truth (Psalms 119:142). If all animals are clean and suitable for eating, then Leviticus 11 is no longer the truth, but Paul said that all Scripture is true and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Those who know the truth are those who know what animals God has given as food to eat, so verse 3 is talking about people who are teaching to abstain from eating meat that God has already said is good to eat according to the truth of His Word (Leviticus 11). So these false teachers were not telling people to abstain from eating pork, which is not defined as food in Scripture. Keep in mind that when this letter was written to Timothy, "Scripture" meant the OT. In verse 3, the greek word for "food" is "broma" which is used to refer to foods that have already declared to be clean.

In verse 5, what does it mean to be made holy by the word of God and prayer? For something to be holy, it means to be set apart, which is the opposite of common or profane. If all animals are clean, then the animals would not be holy or set apart because animals that are set apart for eating must be set apart or separate from animals that are not set apart for eating. By definition, the very fact that there are a group of animals that are holy means that there must be some other separate group of animals that are not holy. If all animals are made clean, then by definition they would all be common, unholy, or not set apart. If all animals are made clean and set apart, then what are they set apart from? It is an oxymoron to say that all animals are sanctified. So those who believe and know the truth, God's law, will understand that the only creatures to be received with thanksgiving as food are creatures that have been set apart by the Word of God and prayer. This is why verse 4 uses the qualified "if" because the only animals to be received by prayer and thanksgiving are those listed as such in Leviticus 11. We are to be thankful for clean animals as food, not for unclean things. Why would we be thankful for eating animals God told us were unclean?

If we pull in even more context, then we run into more problems. Was Paul really saying that God's commands are old wives fables, profane and ungodly? As absurd a that is, that's what must be asked if conclude that verse 4 is speaking against those teaching God's dietary commandments. In 1 Timothy 1:4, 2 Timothy 4:4, Titus 1:14, and 2 Peter 1:16, "fables" is contrasted with the truth, the law, and God's Word. The problem in the 1st century was false doctrines, traditions, and teaching of men that were nullifying the law of God (Mark 7:6-13). The commandments Leviticus 11 are not fables, common, unholy, ungodly and profane, and are not doctrines of devils, so 1 Timothy 4 is actually in favor of keeping God's dietary laws.

Are you taking the old testement laws over the new ones in Christ?

Messiah did not give any laws that were brand new, but rather he taught how to correctly understand and obey OT law both by word and by example. In regard to John 13:34, there are two Greek words that are often translated as "new", one which refers to something that is brand new with respect to time, and something that is refreshed or refurbished with respect to quality, and the word that is used in respect to quality, so it was not a brand new command. Indeed, God commanded us to love our neighbor back in Leviticus 19:18, so there was nothing brand new about that command, but what was new was the quality of the example, where we are to love our neighbor as Messiah loved us rather than as we love ourselves. Another example of this is Matthew 9:17, where two different words are often translated as "new", but it is talking about pouring brand new wine into refurbished wineskins. See:

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/9-17.htm

In regard to Matthew 5, when Jesus quoted Scripture, he said "it is written", but when he quoted what the teachers of the law were saying, he said "you have heard it said", so he was not adding new laws, but was correcting new teachings. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the law certainly says to love your neighbor, it does not say to hate your enemy - that is what the teachers of the law had been wrongly teaching about the law.

Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so if Jesus had added new laws or subtracted any old ones, then he would have sinned and been disqualified as the Messiah.
 
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Soyeong

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Also tho, why would it not refer to other unclean animals, too? Just birds.

A number of translations also mention unclean animals:

http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/18-2.htm

As to why it singles out unclean birds, they are carrion eaters, and Revelation 18 is talking about the fall of Babylon and about there being plagues, so saying that they will be a home for unclean birds would be essentially be saying that there is going to be food for the birds.
 
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Radagast

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As to why it singles out unclean birds, they are carrion eaters, and Revelation 18 is talking about the fall of Babylon and about there being plagues, so saying that they will be a home for unclean birds would be essentially be saying that there is going to be food for the birds.

Exactly. And not just food for the birds: enough dead people lying around that the vultures won't mind sharing with the crows. It's quite a horrific picture, really.
 
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Shempster

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Jeshua often used used animals in His messages. In fact, the animal kingdom serves a deeper, more hidden dimension.
It is a picture of what the invisible world of spirits looks like. It is all around us but we cannot see hear or feel it. I believe we can sense it if we really walk in the spirit, tho.
This is referring to both a bird of prey AND an evil spirit as well.

In the animal kingdom there are generally 2 groups: herbivores like a deer who just wants to live in peace foraging for food and raising its young. (This symbolizes those who are children of God) Then there are the carnivores. They symbolize demons who seek to kill and consume us. He also mentions animals like snakes and scorpions that refer to specific demon types. In fact, the behaviors of most animals mimic the behaviors of demons. Snakes and scorpions are ambush predators. Those demons set traps for us and do not attack until after you are caught. Lion types will hunt you down.
You can really learn alot by simply watching animal behaviors. You can also learn many tricks that animals use to out-fox their attackers.
 
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NJA

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... I thought I did a Internet search once and came up with nothing really, but maybe I should look again, I could be wrong.

"Babylon" is fallen from her once lofty position, but not yet destroyed.
She has become "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit,
and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird".
Cross-referencing with Jeremiah 5:27-31 showsa recognisable religious identification:

"As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great,
and waxen rich. They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked:
they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the
needy do they not judge. Shall I not visit for these things? saith the Lord: shall not my soul
be avenged on such a nation as this?
A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and
the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in
the end thereof?
 
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