Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I've never seen a "nothing". I think it misstating of the problem we are addressing.
The difference here is the universe being proceeded with a "nothing" which is a state of existence I am unfamiliar with, as opposed to say, a timeless singularity (which I am also unfamiliar with) as opposed to a timeless deity (which is also unfamiliar).
You are still missing my point. I am not even talking about the universe.
"Nothing" is not a state of existence anyway, its no-thing. Nor is there such a thing as a timeless singularity. We are not talking about deities either!
Im talking about the fact that never has there been recorded in the history of human observation that something has come from nothing.
Every philosopher, scientist, physicist etc. etc. will tell you that something cannot come from nothing, for nothing is no-thing!
You are thinking way too much about something that is so simple. Do you understand now?
I find that debateable.
You should bring that point up with Stephen Hawkings (whom you quoted earlier). He thinks the universe goes back into timeless space.
We are talking about something we are unfamiliar with regardless since we don't know how the universe started.I've never experienced the birth of a universe either.
I find the idea of nothing to be highly debateable in the first place.
No, you are trying to talk (athoritatively) about things you don't understand.
You don't understand MY points that this is a poorly understood phenomina that (you don't experience every day) and calling it absurd from YOUR perspective is meaningless.
I haven´t seen anything physical coming from something spiritual, either. Thus, when you conclude from observations within the universe on the universe itself, please be consistent.LOL. Ok ok.
This is a philosophical thesis.
1. From nothing, nothing comes,
2. something cannot come from nothing,
3. nothing cannot produce something.
They are all different ways of saying the same thing.
For example, have you ever seen a horse appear into thin air from nothing?
LOL Im not talking about the the universe coming into existence! Why are you not able to understand what I am saying?
If you can't understand this, then you and I cannot have an intellectual discussion.
This is basic stuff my friend.
I haven´t seen anything physical coming from something spiritual, either. Thus, when you conclude from observations within the universe on the universe itself, please be consistent.
On another note: If, as variant suggested, "nothing" is an impossible state of affairs statements like "something can not come from nothing" are operating with a non-concept and therefore redundant.
I did, and I was referring to your idea that God created the universe.Who said anything about "spiritual"?
Yes. Philosophy even allows you to challenge classical philosophical expressions.I am talking pure philosophy in a philosophy forum, and several people seem to be unaware of the classical philosophical expression ex nihilo nihil fit and what it means!!!!!!
Basic yes, as in the basis for your argument.
Why base a conversation about the universe beginning on what I have or haven't seen?
I did, and I was referring to your idea that God created the universe.
Yes. Philosophy even allows you to challenge classical philosophical expressions.
Basic in discussions of philosophy my friend.
Rest assured, I am completely serious. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion I wasn´t.I see you do not want to be serious,
I have never demanded this from you. You came here with the claim that you had such evidence, and of course I took you by your word. If you can´t or don´t want to present it - no problem whatsoever.so I am released from any demand that you may place upon me for evidence regarding the theistic worldview.
No, you don´t see that. It´s not an observation, it´s your interpretation - and, again, a resorting to mind reading and ad hominem as a replacement for actual arguments. Its sort of becoming a pattern.I see you are willfully refusing to engage in sincere discussion and I am sorry that you have chosen this path.
Rest assured, I am completely serious. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion I wasn´t.
I have never demanded this from you. You came here with the claim that you had such evidence, and of course I took you by your word. If you can´t or don´t want to present it - no problem whatsoever.
No, you don´t see that. It´s not an observation, it´s your interpretation - and, again, a resorting to mind reading and ad hominem as a replacement for actual arguments. Its sort of becoming a pattern.
Im talking about the fact that never has there been recorded in the history of human observation that something has come from nothing.
Every philosopher, scientist, physicist etc. etc. will tell you that something cannot come from nothing, for nothing is no-thing!
That's because in the history of human observation there's never been any evidence that "nothing" is a state of affairs that could logically exist.
Wrong.
I've been accused by many of not presenting a case for theism, and when I try to establish some sort of semblance of a foundation on which to work, you and another person have already made it perfectly clear that you can't even bring yourself to agree that from nothing, nothing comes!!!!
And that in a philosophy forum!!!
You are still missing my point. I am not even talking about the universe.
"Nothing" is not a state of existence anyway, its no-thing. Nor is there such a thing as a timeless singularity. We are not talking about deities either!
Im talking about the fact that never has there been recorded in the history of human observation that something has come from nothing.
Every philosopher, scientist, physicist etc. etc. will tell you that something cannot come from nothing, for nothing is no-thing!
You are thinking way too much about something that is so simple. Do you understand now?
I think a quantum physicist would disagree on that one.
There is a major problem with infinite regression to an unmoved mover. The universe is something and therefore requires a cause. God is implied to be the cause, but then what caused God? Ah, but nothing caused God for He is the uncaused cause. So why can't the universe be the uncaused cause and just remove that extra bit of regression. Because the universe is something and therefore requires a cause. Does that not then imply that God is not something as He requires no cause?
Philosophy isn't about dogmas, or at least not ideally. Even such ideas as ex nihilo nihil fit can be questioned or doubted. You shouldn't be surprised or shocked.
In any case, while I don't have any empirical evidence of the truth of that principle, it does satisfy my rational intuition. I would argue that change occurs according to the nature of the entities that are involved in that change. And since "nothingness" doesn't have a nature, since it is not an entity, it makes sense that "nothing" couldn't change into something.
For this reason, I conclude that there was never a state of affairs in which there was nothing at all. However, this is entirely consistent with godless naturalism.
eudaimonia,
Mark
So are you suggesting that the creation of the universe may have been a team effort?Just for clarification...
My question is:
Once we were to accept that the existence of uncaused causes is possible/necessary - what would keep us from considering/postulating two, three, ten, thousands or countless uncaused causes, and instead decide that this must be a unique phenomenon?
So are you suggesting that the creation of the universe may have been a team effort?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?