UMJC defines Messianic Judaism

Shalom,

Weren't the original Followers of the Messiah considered Jewish? Also where is the Oneness if some call themselves Messianic Jew while those who also observe the Torah and live a Jewish life according to YHWH that are Non-Jew by birth have to call themselves something else?
Let me ask what are all of us together? That is what everyone should be called in my opinion, otherwise we are segregating which in fact Yeshua taught we should be ONE.
If we non-Jews are Grafted in by Observing Torah as well as having Faith in Yeshua then to me we are ONE in Messianic Judaism.
Ever since I have been studying Messianic Judaism I have seen it so many times talking about Just Jews. Sounds to me a Special Religion just for Jews and forget everyone else. That is how I see it and am getting sick of it.

Either we all observe Torah and have Faith in Yeshua or we aren't ONE in Spirit.
I also keep seeing that if your a gentile then you don't need to observe Torah. Well where is the ONENESS in that? If we are to be ONE then no one should be able to tell us apart, is that correct or not?
I'm afraid Apostasy is going to be built upon Apostasy if this keeps going the way I have seen it preached. Either we are ONE in YHWH and Yeshua or we are two seperate Beliefs. There is ONE FAITH and ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between Man and GOD.

If there isn't any Jew or Gentile in Yeshua I am beginning to think then what are we in Yeshua. Maybe the name Messianic Judaism is the wrong word to describe those who observe Torah and have Faith in Yeshua. From my understanding the reason it is called Messianic Judaism is because we all observe Torah and also have Faith in Yeshua, not because we are Jew or Gentile.

I can understand the concern with Christians trying to say they are Messianic Jews because they observe some of Torah and in some cases all of Torah.
If I live in Torah and have Faith in Yeshua then what am I? Since I go to a Messianic Judaism Assembly then I can't call myself a Messianic Jew?
If you go to a Christian Church, doesn't matter what Church, you call yourself a Christian.
Sorry but I am seeing something here that isn't going right in my brain, called Racial Profiling Period.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

Shamash,

I see your heartache, I do. I also understand the confusion, as the place of honor for the gentile has not been taught in MJ'ism.

Unfortunately, no... everyone can not make the claim they are 'Jewish' simply because they happen to follow certain mitzvot.

Yes, Sha'ual said "there is no Jew or Gentile." However, he also said, "there is no male or female, slave or free." If I know that I know that I know anything, it's that there is a difference between male and female. I certainly know that when I married my wife that she is a female, and I most certainly know that I am male.

So what does he mean that there is no male or female? Or Jew or Gentile?

It is when we stand before HaShem these definitions break down. We are simply a human being. When we stand before HaShem he does not see "Suzie the female" or "Bob the male" or "David the Jew" or "Frank the Gentile".... no, he sees the heart.

That was the intent of Sha'ul's letter.

We still live in physical bodies. Rules of physicality still apply. Women must still observe Niddah. Slaves must still obey their masters. Jews must still carry Torah forth to the nations.

Then what of the gentiles?

This has been left in the dust in most Messianic circles, or has been perverted to where gentiles are renamed Jews... that's called REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. Unfortunately, that's what you are trying to declare in your last post... a perverted theology.

However, when you realize there IS a special place for the gentile, there IS a calling on them by HaShem, and there IS something different for them to fulfill than the Jews... you might change your mind.

You might then embrace your calling as a gentile.

I applaud you. You have a heart for Torah. You love HaShem.

Now... go find your calling. But don't lose it by chasing another.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Simchat - what shamash is saying isn't Replacement Theology though. RT means that the new Gentile Church replaces the old Jewish People, which is not at all what Tag said he believes.

The problem is very much that Judaism is rolled together with an ethnicity. You can't call yourself a Jew unless you are born one. But if you believe in and follow the religion, you are at a loss what to call yourself, since you have to be of the right ethnicity, apparently, to take the title. Is it for Jews only or is it a universal truth?

You bring up excellent points Tag.

I see exclusion as a huge danger in the MJ movement - mostly reactionary: both to gentile persecution from the church in history creating a desire to have a safe refuge among the likeminded, and also in response to people who view a "Jewish soul" as superior and think it is something to wish for and so joining in huge numbers and being false to who they are - gentiles, calling themselves Jewish when that is not their ethnicity.

As a gentile I am stung like you by attitudes against gentiles. And I label myself as what I am - independent, but a ger because I hold to MJ teachings and believe the covenant still holds for the Jews. BUT people have told me many times that ]being Jewish isn't something superior and being a goy I am not an outsider but I have my own important destiny to fulfill that I could not had I been born a Jew.

I hope some of that is encouraging to you.

I agree with the UMJC primarily.

I know they've been working on some followup stances to declare as well but these things move slowly through consensus.

The only part I have a problem with is the last part about "Jewish lifestyle". Its a rather ambigious thing and who gets to determine what a Jewish tradition or community is? I just prefer to keep it simpler.

Shalom Yafet and Ruhama,

Paul's Letter to the Ephesians
4:1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and humility, with patience, bearing with one another in love; 3 being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one immersion, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. 7 But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Messiah. 8 Therefore he says, "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.“ 9 Now this, "He ascended," what is it but that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
11 He gave some to be emissaries; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the holy ones, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Messiah; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Messiah; 14 that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; 15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Messiah; 16 from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their hearts; 19 who having become callous gave themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Messiah that way; 21 if indeed you heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Yeshua: 22 that you put away, as concerning your former way of life, the old man, that grows corrupt after the lusts of deceit; 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new man, who in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

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Tell me something, if a Jew is not living as YHWH wants him to then isn't he just like a Gentile? For all who don't Obey Torah and have Faith in Yeshua won't be Grafted in.

Yochanan's First Letter 5:1 Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

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And we know Faith withour works is dead. For Abraham by his works was counted Righteousness because he had Faith in YHWH. How about Job? By Faith we do works that please YHWH.
Also those teaching or preaching that the Torah(Instructions of Living) are no more, here is a word of warning:

7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

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So is a Jews works better then a Gentiles works that they do in Faith to YHWH? You know when I first put up that thread on Women and Men I began to think really hard about where each have their place in YHWH's plan. You know what, their place is where YHWH says, not us. I see YHWH used women many times throughout the Tanakh and B'rit Khadashah as Prophets, teachers, etc. which Men have been written about doing from the beginning. I can tell you a Fact that Woman have power over Men that Men don't have over Women and that power is why I think YHWH doesn't want a Woman to be over a man. Can you tell me what that is? I don't know the exact word to use, but I can say a Man can be talked into almost any thing by a woman. Take a look at Adam and Eve. Didn't Eve convince Adam that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was pleasing to the eyes? YES!!! If your a male or a female you should know from experience living in this world of that power a woman has over a man. Anyone can say no they don't but you know they would be lying to themselves. Now that power won't work if you put YHWH FIRST in all things.
So now back to the Jew vs Gentile roles. Tell me didn't the Jewish Kingdom fulfill thier role in Keeping YHWH's Scriptures accurate? Yes they did. And YHWH allowed their hearts to be hardened so His Salvation would be for Everyone EQUALLY. Remember YHWH isn't a Respector of Persons. He sees us from our Heart whether we are Good or Evil in our intentions.
I understand that Christianity has lost its roots in not Jewishness, but Israelness in what Yeshua taught. We have to remember that Israel is set apart from all Nations because Israel is YHWH's People. Now when you are Grafted in then you are part of Israel and not part of the World. We aren't of this world when we come to YHWH's Salvation and accept HIM, for remember HE accepted us first for HE knew us before we were ever BORN.
So now I say what shall we call ourselves to set us apart from all other beliefs that are floating around? I would say Messianic PERIOD. Not Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile. We hold the Observance of Torah and the Faith of Yeshua, that is the difference that we LIVE. Yet whether Jew or Gentile we of ONE FAITH, ONE YHWH, ONE MEDIATOR, ONE RUACH.
I don't preach or teach Replacement Theology. I am not one who believes as is taught in Christian Churches for my eyes are open and see that a veil has been put over the original teachers and preachers just after the original Apostles and Disciples who talked with Yeshua were gone from the world.
I see we are now on the flip-side of the issue now. Instead of Jews who believe in Yeshua preaching to the Gentiles, we now are Gentiles preaching to the Jews, but also to those Gentiles and Jews who have been taught Torah observance is no more. From what I have read that Messianics are a majority of Gentiles that have had their eyes opened up to the Truth of Torah observance.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

Ruhama,

what shamash is saying isn't Replacement Theology though. RT means that the new Gentile Church replaces the old Jewish People, which is not at all what Tag said he believes.

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First, replacement theology is not limited to "the church" replacing Israel. Replacement Theology is a broad term defining anything replacing the Jewish people... whether that be the church, or in this case "righteous gentiles".
Shamash wants to call gentiles who live righteously "Jews". This would be replacing the Jews with something else.

Shamash,

I agree with you that women are not lesser than men. However, you are missing the point and using an incorrect justificaiton.

The point is NOT that Jews have a better calling than the gentiles. No, it is different... not better.

In the same way a man's calling is not better than a woman's calling, but it is different. In otherwords, it is incorrect logic to say, "A man's calling is no better than a woman's, thus a Jew's calling is no better than a gentiles... and in conclusion, the calling is the same." The conclusion would be incorrect. They have different callings.

You can not call a gentile a Jew. You can not call a woman a man. However, each has their own special and unique calling that they must fulfill.

On a related note:
If HaShem calls you to be a Jew... convert. This would include a ritual circumcision, meeting with a Rabbi for approxiametely a year, and a mikvah. However, if you merely want to say you are a Jew because you observe some of the mitzvot, that would be replacement theology. If you want to continue to serve HaShem in the capacity you are now... find your calling as a gentile. I'm excited to discuss the topic of a Righteous Goy, and we can start a new thread for that specifically if you'd like.

Shalom,
Yafet.

I don't want to call myself a Jew because I am not a Jew by birth.
The problem is with Messianic Judaism. And what you are talking about in converting to a Jew is different then what a Messianic believer is. For a Jew in those terms doesn't believe in the Messiah. And if they do then they are a Messianic.
So I reckon we ought to just truncate the word Jew from Messianic Judaism and just call everyone that believes in the Messiah a "Messianic" Period.
No if ands or buts.
No need to start another thread on Righteousness of a Goy.

Shalom,
Tag

So I reckon we ought to just truncate the word Jew from Messianic Judaism and just call everyone that believes in the Messiah a "Messianic" Period.

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That's an excellent idea. In fact, the same faith is being shared and expressed by both the gentiles and Jews who practice this religious expression... and to include "messianic jew" would exclude messianic gentiles.

And what you are talking about in converting to a Jew is different then what a Messianic believer is.

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There is a difference in following some of the mitzvot and establishing the covenant of Torah as a binding relationship. As well, throughout the Tenach you see varying relationships between righteous goy and the Torah. What are the Jewish people but a conglomeration of races who established a covenant at the foot of the mountain?

Shalom,
Yafet.

simchat_torah said:

That's an excellent idea. In fact, the same faith is being shared and expressed by both the gentiles and Jews who practice this religious expression... and to include "messianic jew" would exclude messianic gentiles.

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Thanks is YHWH's For I feel it is He who is putting this into my mind and heart.

There is a difference in following some of the mitzvot and establishing the covenant of Torah as a binding relationship. As well, throughout the Tenach you see varying relationships between righteous goy and the Torah. What are the Jewish people but a conglomeration of races who established a covenant at the foot of the mountain?

Shalom,
Yafet.

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Salvation has come from the Jews, yes. Yet now we are all to be ONE in YHWH's Salvation: Yeshua Now we are ONE Faith and I don't see any difference that should be stated in any way. We all have a Covenant that is the Same for ALL. If there is any different covenant for gentiles, I sure haven't seen it stated in Scripture.
Answer this: If someone in the past became part of Israel weren't they to do all things according to Torah?
Now since Yeshua came to save the World, then I would say that we ALL are obligated to do as HE DID, Observe Torah and have Faith(Trust) in YHWH's Salvation. After all if you being a Gentile or even a Jew observe even the little part of the Torah then you are obligated to observe ALL of Torah, is this correct or not? If you are going to keep Shabbat then you need to go all the way. If you aren't going to Murder, Commit Adultry, Eat Kosher food, Keep the Feasts, etc., then you should go all the way and observe all of Torah.
When you are a Child in the Faith then of course the Council said good in saying the Gentiles should at the least Keep what they said. But I tell you after you are not a Child anymore you will learn to observe ALL of Torah. That is how I see what the Council implied what they did. Not that Gentiles don't need to observe all of Torah, but because they are new(Children) of the Faith then they should observe what they said at a minimum. I can't remember what they said, but I think it was Acts 15 if my memory suits me
You know that you don't feed a Baby Meat, right? You only feed the Baby Milk until the Baby is grown enough to eat Meat. The same with someone that is just a Baby in Yeshua. You don't want to shove Torah down their throat or you just might Kill their Faith in Yeshua. We all started out as Babies in Yeshua.
Now we are Children until we can eat the Meat of the Scriptures. Now if we are disobedient Children then what happens? Discipline is what happens. Now if the Child in the Faith doesn't want to obey after consuming milk for a long time, for at some time one must be weaned from Milk and given Meat, then they must be brought before two or more others. And if they still don't learn what is expected to become an Adult in Scripture then they must be brought before the Assembly. I am speaking of Disobedient Children(Adults that are still on Milk, but should by this time have been weaned). And if they still aren't observing Torah and have Faith in Yeshua then they are to be given over to the World. because if you keep that Disobediant person in the Assembly, a little bad leaven can corrupt the whole. Of course this is all done in Love from the beginning.
I have to say, who knows the Truth? The Ruach does, that is why the Ruach will be given to those who are Obediant to Torah and have Faith in YHWH's Salvation(Yeshua).

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

I am not jewish but describe myself as "messianic". I am quick to point out that doesn't make me jewish.

My wife says the "messi" part is a pretty good description

But I don't like this definition that the UMJC has made. It seems to divide messianics more than anything. And the Union's embrace of orthodox rabbinical judaism in their "lifestyle" is alarming. Not interested in becoming jewish to fit their definition.

Ephramite congregations are flourishing with this kind of stuff

So. I don't really get it.

I've read posts from supporters of UMCJ from around the internet, and I still don't quite get it.

In one thread, the most accurate quote I've seen on their position is "You can have our God, but not his Torah". In reference to the gentiles.

Does that basically sum them up?

Because if it does, they are wrong.

We are either one people, serving one God, in one way, as Shamash has said, or we are creating another catholic/protestant debacle...

My love for Israel does not supercede my love for God. I want to learn of the Torah because I love him, and want to draw closer to him, not for my love of Israel and it's native born, though that is present in my heart as well.

The UMCJ reminds me of a child playing outside with the only ball around, snatching it away when other children try to play with it.

You can't keep God in your pockets.

Who do these scriptures reference;

Re 2:9 -
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Re 3:9 -
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Do they speak of gentiles with a sincere heart are observing, and desiring to learn of things considered "Jewish", even though they are the ways of God. Not things of Jewish origen, or any other man.

Or...

Are they in reference to natural born Jews who remain uncircumcised in the heart?

I know I have no desire to be considered a Jew in this world. Why would I? I am what God made me.

I want to learn the ways of God. He chose to present those ways through the Jewish people. Contrary to rabbinic literature, the Jews did not chose him, he chose them. And not for anything they did to earn his favor, but out of the goodness of his heart for a people that were few upon the face of the earth.

He chose them to be a light to the world, and a witness of him.

Why? So they could rub it in our faces? I don't think so...

Sorry if I'm way off base. But from a mild perousing throughout the internet of the UMCJ thats how I'm starting to view them.

Since we make definite distinctions between the First Century Church with its Jewish Believers and today's church, what does that mean regarding First Century Judaism and today's Rabbinical Judaism?
For example, I am a Jew by birth and feel that we need to examine the 1st Century AD for how to walk. But if any gentile came to me and wanted to be a Jew, I would have to refer to Torah to see how one did that before Rabbinical Judaism.
For example, that most famous convert of all - Ruth. No interviews with Rabbis there.

I guess I also post right now because, depsite being born a Jew, I wonder how I could be a Messianic Jew without following teachings of the Rabbis.
A good example is the wearing of a thread of blue with one's tzitzit. If you do it, you're disobeying the Rabbis but holding fast to Torah.

I've read posts from supporters of UMCJ from around the internet, and I still don't quite get it. In one thread, the most accurate quote I've seen on their position is "You can have our God, but not his Torah". In reference to the gentiles. Does that basically sum them up?

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did they really say that somewhere? Wow.

I used to be on the fringe of leadership in the UMJC in the early 90s. There were a couple of "small" minds back then but hardly a majority. This stuff distresses me if it's true.

"our" God is also the Living Torah. How could the UMJC say such a thing?

Religion always makes a mess of things....

btw...are you Ron Kenoly or just like his picture?

Since we make definite distinctions between the First Century Church with its Jewish Believers and today's church, what does that mean regarding First Century Judaism and today's Rabbinical Judaism? For example, I am a Jew by birth and feel that we need to examine the 1st Century AD for how to walk. But if any gentile came to me and wanted to be a Jew, I would have to refer to Torah to see how one did that before Rabbinical Judaism. For example, that most famous convert of all - Ruth. No interviews with Rabbis there.

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The first century (jewish) church was zealous for the Torah (acts 21:20)...but not for the rabbis.

Rabbinical judaism is no less Babylonian than the traditional church.

There is a narrow path between the both of them..

yod said:

The first century (jewish) church was zealous for the Torah (acts 21:20)...but not for the rabbis.

Rabbinical judaism is no less Babylonian than the traditional church.

There is a narrow path between the both of them..

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Exactly!