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Um...did I get this right?

Aug 3, 2008
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Hi, I think I've got the basic gist of all of this but I'm hoping you guys can tell me if I'm off somewhere or whatever :) So below is sort of an outline of how I understand the whole thing.
Peace and hugs!


Ok, so there is God (yhwh) and he's always existed. He all powerful and lonely and he wants company.

He creates angels and mankind. We're basically made to be companions to him. He makes it so we have freewill because without it, what would be the point, we'd be like Barbie dolls he has to control. And he gives Angels freewill as well which doesn't go down so well because Lucifer storms off with a group of them after trying to take over heaven.

But we humans in the meantime need to be worthy of being his companions so he creates the earth and lives for us to live to prove our worth before we can join him forever. But we don't really live up to his expectations, at least most of us don't and the annoying interference by Lucifer doesn't help.

So later on he decides to give us a hand in it because we really don't seem to be getting the message and sends down his son to lead us back on the right path. Which all considered is really only a partial success because we still live pretty sinful lives and go to war and kill. But at least the option to repent is there which is better than before.

Hope my summary hasn't offended anyone or anything, it's just my perspective and I'm just hoping to a little clarity here :p
 

stumpjumper

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Well I would say that's an interesting spin on the Christian perspective but not all that accurate.

I would say that, yes, there is this God who exists eternally and is best defined as Love. Christians don't believe that God has love or loves other but that God is love. Love, by it's very nature, is reciprocal and compels those who love to share that love with others which is one of the reasons why Christians believe in a triune God wherein love can exist.

So, you have this God of love and this God creates a universe and that universe develops and the earth emerges and then people and all living things are created/emerged out of the dust. We, humans, are capable of experiencing God and sharing in God's love but we are also capable of rejecting God's love and companionship and commit acts of evil against other people.

I would say the example of Jesus Christ is the concrete example of perfect love and that the meaning of Christianity is that love starts with God and that God came to show us how to love and what it means to love others.

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another.​
 
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salida

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Yes, its an interesting spin - its not bad though ha. Having this faith is a spiritual decision first and intellectual one second. I challenge you to research it for yourself - read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in a court of law concerning biblical evidence) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster(a former athiest). If you want to know even more, I have plenty of info. The Bible is the most unique book in the world - its not because I said so - there is truly overwhelming evidence. Hard evidence. Yes, I have studied other religious books, etc. Feel free to email me if your interested.
 
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Thanks for the reply, both of you :)

I'm not a christian but I am trying to understand the basic elements of the faith. I'll definitely look up those books and have a read. Anything that can help me understand is great but I'm not really interested in converting or anything, just understanding.

I feel I should explain my reasoning a little so maybe you could suggest some readings for me. My family have a Christian background, well my extended family at least, my immediate family and I am agnostic. I once mapped out (from my grandparent forward on both sides) which denominations we at some point were a member of, I got: Methodist, Lutheran, Philadelphian, Assembly of God, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist and Catholic. So as you can imagine I have seen so many spins on what is the basic message.

Right now I'm looking for the spin free version. I'm slowly working my way through the bible and am trying to talk to as many people as possible about what they think the basic history and concept is. But at the moment I have been told so many things by so many people and I'm finding it a bit frustrating.
And the concept of of God as love... well that is a whole 'nother branch of research I'm going to have to do....
 
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Stinker

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I think the most difficult thing for mankind to understand and accept about this God is His infinite justice. We have no difficulty understanding His infinite love and infinite mercy. Because we can never be 'worthy' enough to be with Him in heaven, Jesus was. With His sacrifice every believer will enter into heaven.
 
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dead2self

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Ok, so there is God (yhwh) and he's always existed. He all powerful and lonely and he wants company.

That's actually a commone mistake taught even by Christians. But it's not accurate. God was not lonely at all. He is self-sufficient and entirely satisfied in His infinite greatness. He greated us out of an overflow of love and to display His Glory. You see He created us to love us and displaying His glory more fully chows greater love for us.

He creates angels and mankind. We're basically made to be companions to him. He makes it so we have freewill because without it, what would be the point, we'd be like Barbie dolls he has to control. And he gives Angels freewill as well which doesn't go down so well because Lucifer storms off with a group of them after trying to take over heaven.

Again, not quite there. The facts are not too far off, but the conclusions are. You see, the fall of Lucifer, and the subsequent fall of man were foreordained and necessary to bring us to the cross, which is the focal point of creation. Allowinf Lucifer to rebel was not a plan that didn't pan out but a perfect plan that has played out as intended.

But we humans in the meantime need to be worthy of being his companions so he creates the earth and lives for us to live to prove our worth before we can join him forever. But we don't really live up to his expectations, at least most of us don't and the annoying interference by Lucifer doesn't help.

Actually, we are never worthy. Nothing we can do can prove ourselves. Each sin is so offensive that we simply can never pay our debt to God. Even the most saintly person is a sinner deserving hell. That is why Christ died. He did it to pay our price. We are now faced with the choice of accepting Him or rejecting Him.
So later on he decides to give us a hand in it because we really don't seem to be getting the message and sends down his son to lead us back on the right path. Which all considered is really only a partial success because we still live pretty sinful lives and go to war and kill. But at least the option to repent is there which is better than before.

True, Christ came to show us how to live. But vastly more importantly, His work on the cross made it possible for us to be reconciled to God. As for living sinful lives, yes we all sin. While we are justified upon repentant faith in Christ, we become progressively sanctified through our lives. As we mature in our faith, we grow in holiness. It is a sign that one is a false convert, or at least a very immature believer, if he is not growing in holiness.

Hope my summary hasn't offended anyone or anything, it's just my perspective and I'm just hoping to a little clarity here :p

Nothing at all offensive friend :)

You are off a little on some of the theology, but who can fault you for that. Your theoloy is better than some "Christian" theology out there.
 
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Jon0388g

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Hi, I think I've got the basic gist of all of this but I'm hoping you guys can tell me if I'm off somewhere or whatever :) So below is sort of an outline of how I understand the whole thing.
Peace and hugs!


Ok, so there is God (yhwh) and he's always existed. He all powerful and lonely and he wants company.

He creates angels and mankind. We're basically made to be companions to him. He makes it so we have freewill because without it, what would be the point, we'd be like Barbie dolls he has to control. And he gives Angels freewill as well which doesn't go down so well because Lucifer storms off with a group of them after trying to take over heaven.

But we humans in the meantime need to be worthy of being his companions so he creates the earth and lives for us to live to prove our worth before we can join him forever. But we don't really live up to his expectations, at least most of us don't and the annoying interference by Lucifer doesn't help.

So later on he decides to give us a hand in it because we really don't seem to be getting the message and sends down his son to lead us back on the right path. Which all considered is really only a partial success because we still live pretty sinful lives and go to war and kill. But at least the option to repent is there which is better than before.

Hope my summary hasn't offended anyone or anything, it's just my perspective and I'm just hoping to a little clarity here :p


Hi faith_in_consciousness!


You've got no Seventh-day Adventists in your family tree? I'm ashamed!;) Here's the picture Adventists believe the Bible paints of God and His creation. I'll try to template your original structure.



Ok, there's God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who have eternally existed as the Holy Trio, one God in three Persons. God is certainly all powerful but never has been 'lonely' since the perfect and infinite love that exists between each Member of the Godhead is perfectly reciprocated. He decides to create the universe and all other worlds so He can share His love with intelligent beings, just like a Father wishes for a large family so He can love His children more than His own life!



He gives every being in the universe the gift of free will, because forced love is not love at all. This gift was also given to the angels of heaven including Lucifer, who was once the chief angel of heaven, most honoured and gifted among all. The Bible tells us that Lucifer began to envy the position of Christ as the Son of God, and wished to exalt himself to the same position, since angels and all the universe adored and worshipped Christ. Since he could never hope to be equal with God the Son, he stirred up a controversy in heaven about the character of God, His law, and His government. Most of the angels discerned Lucifer's hatred of Christ. A third of the angels however, were deceived and joined the rebellion. Eventually war broke out in heaven, and Lucifer and his angels were thrown out. Note that if Lucifer and his company had been destroyed by God, which He could have if He pleased, Lucifer's charge against God would have been proved right, and the whole universe would have served Him out of fear, rather than love. Enter....



....the first man and wife, where God tests their loyalty to Him in light of the events happening in heaven. We fail, and the whole earth is given to the dominion of satan. The act of transgressing God's law was used by satan as a supposed victory over God: he charged it was impossible to obey Him and His law, He was unjust in His treatment of him and the angels, and He should rightfully require the death of humans as the wages of sin. But, an all merciful God would not allow this to happen. He had a plan from the days of eternity, the 'Plan of Redemption'.



This plan involved sending the Son, the One whom satan's hatred had been focussed and the One who's character and dignity had been questioned, to pay the penalty in guilty man's place. This penalty was death on a cross, and it required a life of total obedience. Not only did Jesus Christ purchase the salvation of mankind with His life, He proved before Lucifer and the entire universe that His Own law was just, and possible to obey from the heart of selfless love. The true characters of satan and Christ stood side by side at Calvary, as clearly contrasted as midnight to midday. The merit's of Christ's obedience to the Law of Heaven is now freely offered to all who accept, from our first father Adam down to the last sinner. It would be as if we had never sinned.



And this whole controversy will be settled once and for all at the final judgment. Every knee will bow at the Name of Jesus Christ, including Lucifer and his angels, and acknowledge His supreme rule as the only God and Saviour, and the just claims of His law.



And all creation will testify without a doubt that God is love.






That's our take on it anyway, hope this helps!:)






Jon
 
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PastorJim

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Ok, so there is God (yhwh) and he's always existed. He all powerful and lonely and he wants company.

The short answer to the question “why did God create us?” is “for His pleasure.” Revelation 4:11 says, “Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.” Colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: “All things were created by Him and for Him.”

Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God—and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. As God, He needs nothing. In all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a “friend.” He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. If we had never existed, God would still be God—the Unchanging One (Malachi 3:6).

The I AM THAT I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Him, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the One True God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The Lord He is God; there is none else beside Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than the One who made it.

Given the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, and the utter wickedness of man, I find it amazing that He would take man and “crown him with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5), and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15).

And he gives Angels freewill as well which doesn't go down so well because Lucifer storms off with a group of them after trying to take over heaven.

Again, this isn't quite right. Satan didn't "storm off", Satan was cast out by God.

This is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power that was behind those kings - Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

The book of Job tells us that, for a time at least, Satan still had access to heaven and to the throne of God. “One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, ’Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the LORD, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it’" (Job 1:6-7). Apparently at that time, Satan was still moving freely between heaven and earth, speaking to God directly and answering for his activities. At what point God discontinued this access is unknown.

Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Ezekiel 28:12-15 describes Satan as an exceedingly beautiful angel. Satan was likely the highest of all angels, the most beautiful of all of God's creations, but he was not content in his position. Instead, Satan desired to be God, to essentially "kick God off His throne" and take over the rule of the universe. Satan wanted to be God, and interestingly enough, that is what Satan tempted Adam and Eve with in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-5). How did Satan fall from Heaven? Actually, a fall is not an accurate description. It would be far more accurate to say that God cast Satan out of Heaven (Isaiah 14:15; Ezekiel 28:16-17).

But we humans in the meantime need to be worthy of being his companions so he creates the earth and lives for us to live to prove our worth before we can join him forever.

Not exactly.

“Just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so sin spread through all men” (Romans 5:12). The effects of the Fall are numerous and far reaching. Sin has affected every aspect of our being. It has affected our lives on earth and our eternal destiny.

One of the immediate effects of the Fall is that mankind was separated from God. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, that fellowship was broken. They became aware of their sin and were ashamed before Him. They hid from Him (Genesis 3:8-10), and man has been hiding from God ever since. Only through Christ can that fellowship be restored, because in Him we have become as righteous and sinless in God’s eyes as Adam and Eve were before they sinned. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Because of the Fall, death became a reality, and all creation was subject to it. All men die (with the exception of Enoch and Elijah, whom God miraculously took to heaven without death), all animals die, all plant life dies. The “whole creation groans” (Romans 8:22), waiting for the time when Christ will return to liberate it from the effects of death. Because of sin, death is an inescapable reality and no one is immune. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Worse still, we not only die, but if we die without Christ, we experience eternal death.

Another effect of the Fall is that humans have lost sight of the purpose for which they were created. Man’s chief end and highest purpose in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 6:20; 1 Corinthians 10:31; Psalm 86:9). Hence, love to God is the core of all morality and goodness. The opposite is the choice of self as supreme. Selfishness is the essence of the Fall, and what follows are all other crimes against God. In all ways sin is a turning in upon oneself, which is confirmed in how we live our lives. We call attention to ourselves and to our good qualities and accomplishments. We minimize our shortcomings. We seek special favors and opportunities in life, wanting an extra edge that no one else has. We display vigilance to our own wants and needs, while we ignore those of others. In short, we place ourselves upon the throne of our lives, usurping the role that belongs to God.

When Adam chose to rebel against God, he lost his innocence, incurred the penalty of physical and spiritual death, and his mind was darkened by sin, as are the minds of his successors. The Apostle Paul said of pagan minds, “Since they do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind” (Romans 1:28). He told the Corinthians that “the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4). Jesus said, “I have come into the world as a light so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness” (John 12:46). Paul reminded the Ephesians, “You were once in darkness but now you are in the light of the Lord” (Ephesians 5:8). The purpose of salvation is “to open the eyes [of unbelievers] and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God” (Acts 26:18).

The Fall produced in humans a state of depravity. Paul spoke of those “whose consciences are seared” (1 Timothy 4:2) and those whose minds are spiritually darkened as a result of rejecting the truth (Romans 1:21). In this state of depravity, man is utterly incapable of doing or choosing that which is acceptable to God, apart from divine grace. “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so” (Romans 8:7).

Without the supernatural regeneration by the Holy Spirit, all men would remain in the fallen state of sin. But thanks to His grace, mercy and loving-kindness, God sent His Son to die on the cross and take the penalty of our sin, reconciling us to God and making eternal life with Him possible. What was lost at the Fall is reclaimed at the Cross.

So later on he decides to give us a hand in it because we really don't seem to be getting the message and sends down his son to lead us back on the right path. Which all considered is really only a partial success because we still live pretty sinful lives and go to war and kill. But at least the option to repent is there which is better than before.

There is so much more to it than simply "leading us back on the right path".

The Scripture says, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Evidence affirms that the sinless Jesus bled and died on a cross. Most importantly, the Bible explains why Jesus’ death and resurrection provide the only entrance to heaven.

The punishment for sin is death.

God created earth and man perfect. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s commands, He had to punish them. A judge who pardons law-breakers isn’t a righteous judge. Likewise, overlooking sin would make the holy God unjust. Death is God’s just consequence for sin. “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Even good works cannot make up for wrongs against the holy God. Compared to His goodness, “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b). Ever since Adam’s sin, every human has been guilty of disobeying God’s righteous laws. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Sin is not just big things like murder or blasphemy, but also includes love of money, hatred of enemies, and deceit of tongue and pride. Because of sin, everyone has deserved death – eternal separation from God in hell.

The promise required an innocent death.

Although God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, He didn’t leave them without hope of heaven. He promised He would send a sinless Sacrifice to take the punishment they deserved (Genesis 3:15). Until then, men would sacrifice innocent lambs, showing their repentance from sin and faith in the future Sacrifice from God who would bear their penalty. God reaffirmed His promise of the Sacrifice with men such as Abraham and Moses. Herein lies the beauty of God’s perfect plan: God Himself provided the only sacrifice (Jesus) who could atone for the sins of His people. God’s perfect Son fulfilled God’s perfect requirement of God’s perfect law. It is perfectly brilliant in its simplicity. “God made Him (Christ), who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The prophets foretold Jesus’ death.

From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Messiah. One prophet, Isaiah, described Him:

“Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12). He likened the coming Sacrifice to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.

Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). Crowds thronged Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him. As Isaiah foretold, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals but was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But He didn’t remain in the grave. Because God accepted His Lamb’s sacrifice, He fulfilled another prophecy by raising Jesus from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 26:19).

Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Praise God, He kept His promise to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.

Hope this helps.
 
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ebia

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But we humans in the meantime need to be worthy of being his companions so he creates the earth and lives for us to live to prove our worth before we can join him forever.
No. Absolutely not.
Our intended destiny is and always has been on earth. But our idolatory has resulted in that creation being distorted and marred by sin, decay and death. God's plan it is to put right creation so that the creation project can go forward as it was always intended to, with us taking up the key roles in that, and with Heaven and Earth rejoined in the New Heavens and New Earth. It is most definitely not about us escaping physical creation to join God someone else.


But we don't really live up to his expectations, at least most of us don't and the annoying interference by Lucifer doesn't help.

So later on he decides to give us a hand in it because we really don't seem to be getting the message and sends down his son to lead us back on the right path. Which all considered is really only a partial success because we still live pretty sinful lives and go to war and kill. But at least the option to repent is there which is better than before.
The plan isn't over. The decisive act happened in the cross and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, but thats not full implemented yet, and won't be until the final resurrection when God's Kingdom comes "on earth as it is in heaven". At that point final judgement will have to be pronounced on all that stands in the way of the restoration of creation.
 
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Hog Red

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Thanks for the reply, both of you :)

I'm not a christian but I am trying to understand the basic elements of the faith. I'll definitely look up those books and have a read. Anything that can help me understand is great but I'm not really interested in converting or anything, just understanding.

I feel I should explain my reasoning a little so maybe you could suggest some readings for me. My family have a Christian background, well my extended family at least, my immediate family and I am agnostic. I once mapped out (from my grandparent forward on both sides) which denominations we at some point were a member of, I got: Methodist, Lutheran, Philadelphian, Assembly of God, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist and Catholic. So as you can imagine I have seen so many spins on what is the basic message.

Right now I'm looking for the spin free version. I'm slowly working my way through the bible and am trying to talk to as many people as possible about what they think the basic history and concept is. But at the moment I have been told so many things by so many people and I'm finding it a bit frustrating.
And the concept of of God as love... well that is a whole 'nother branch of research I'm going to have to do....

Welcome FIC, glad to see that you are at least searching for truth. The spin free zone can only be found in the Bible. My suggestion would be to read the book of John in the New Testemant. Dont worry about what you dont understand there is enough there that you will understand. I'm praying that the truth is revealed to you. Keep us posted.
 
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