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UCC's - World Cafe... some observations

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lands21

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From my blog: http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/

I have to admit, my initial thought on the new ad campaign from the United Church of Canada where those of the skeptic. But as I drilled into those thoughts for this post, I realized they stem more from doctrine differences. I have decided to push those aside and look at this new ad campaign for what it is, a way to get Christians talking. That being said, I still am not completely sold on the idea or the intentions.

I have been taught that you should always provide the positive feedback first, then move on to any "area's of opportunity". Well, I am going to begin with what bothers me and move into what I like.
Reverend Keith Howard, who is heading the three-year project called Emerging Spirit, told The Globe and Mail "We are trying to increase the visibility and awareness of The United Church of Canada,". Also, researchers hired by the church stated in a recent report that "The United Church of Canada must establish its own unique positioning, promote its own values and help people break damaging stereotypes of organized religion,". I think God is very disappointed with this statement. I think He is disappointed with His entire church. This is promoting the division's we have in the Church, and making them greater. This is not the vision Peter had for the Church. To me these statements say "we need to bring in more people into our building."

The UCC also opened a lot of doors with questions like "Does God hate me because I am gay?". Though this is a great question (and answered by the EZ Answer Squirrel here) this is only the first step. It is easy to tell a homosexual that God loves them, it is much harder to say that God wants him/her to change, or God wants him/her to leave their faithful gay partner of 10 years because it is a sin.

How does the UCC plan to take the people that come to this site and lead them to Christ? What are the next steps?

When I went to wondercafe.ca for the first time, the message on the home page was "Administrators Message WE WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CENSORSHIP ON WONDERCAFE.CA." While I understand the message, it worries me. http://www.christianforums.com/index.php is an on line Christian fourm for open discussion with limited censorship and there is very wide range of conversations that take place. There is a lot of Christians arguing with Christians in a very negative light. How would a seeker respond to this when he/she logs on and sees that Christians can't even agree?

The above being said, I understand the issues presented are not restricted to the topic and are questions Church's faced long before these ads were released. One note I did find both funny and saddening was that "the church spent more than a year researching why people, specifically in the 30- to 45-age group, have become so turned off by organized religion. The research found many people view followers of established churches as judgmental, arrogant and unwilling to listen." I could have saved them the year and told them that.

I asked one of my agnostic associates for his feedback on these ads, here are his words " The research found many people view followers of established churches as judgmental, arrogant and unwilling to listen. " that sums up the large portion of how i feel personally and second of all, i feel that the churches discrimination against gays and lesbians is bigotry and equal to racisim but i do agree with this church in particular taking steps toward open and honest discussion. Good ads. 10 million, sounds more like a business to me and churches are actually recognized within society (technically) as a business. Anyways, good ads, good way to prompt discussion."

Now for the other side of the conversation, what I like about it:

- The ads (both video and print) look great! Very professional. Not the normal "volunteer" quality church publication.

- It will resonate with both Christians and non Christians. It will get people asking questions and taking another look at the church.

- "The campaign objective is not to convert people to Christianity but to evoke existing Christians to talk about ethical and religious questions" This is a refreshing change. It is good to see a church putting resources into preparing its own instead of constantly trying to grow.

- It will spark debate between the churches and force us to look at how we communicate with the world we are in.
It will be interesting to see were this goes, I know it is early and I will be watching closely.
 

lands21

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Here is what happens when you setup a forum like the one on Wondercafe.ca.

This is exactly what I was worried about.

This is not encouraging open conversation, but giving a platform for ignorant Christians and just as equally ignorant non Christians to slam each other.


Tue, Nov 07/0608:47 pm
All are called to be obedient to the Word of God. God is holy and we, as His creation, are called to live holy lives - pure lives. Sex outside the sacrament of marriage is sin. God will punish those who practice sexual immorality.

LiveAndLetLive http://www.wondercafe.ca/profile_view.php?loadedFrom=Index&profileid=C071106204110 http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/2006/11/these_are_the_p.html# Tue, Nov 07/0608:51 pm
Hey that is fantastic, maybe you would like to define what the biblical definition of marriage is? If we are going by the definition that the Christ used to His relationship, then it is merely love and devotion as per described in 1 Corinthians 13. SO, with that being said, if I love my fiancee according to the guidelines of that passage then how can I possibly be breaking the vow of love?

Ignorance may be bliss, but it is also full of stupidity. Way to go on making an ass of yourself.

sylviac http://www.wondercafe.ca/profile_view.php?loadedFrom=Index&profileid=S071106195502 http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/2006/11/these_are_the_p.html# Tue, Nov 07/0608:58
pmusually problems come with having sex before marriage. What are you going to tell the children, if you are promiscuous? Can you ask them to abstain?

PrazGod http://www.wondercafe.ca/profile_view.php?loadedFrom=Index&profileid=C071106180328 http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/2006/11/these_are_the_p.html# Tue, Nov 07/0609:00 pm
The greatest commandment is to love God. One cannot love God unless you obey His commandments. Fornication and homosexuality are sins. If you truly love God, you will ask Him to help you be chaste and respect the soul of the one you are engaged to. Sex outside of marriage is sinful. May God bless you.

agnostic http://www.wondercafe.ca/profile_view.php?loadedFrom=Index&profileid=H071106210928 http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/2006/11/these_are_the_p.html# Tue, Nov 07/0609:25 pm
There is absolutely no rational way to justify being anti-gay by quoting from the Bible. As anyone who has ever read the Bible knows (whether they admit it or not), it is filled with contradictions, errors, and information which is simply out of date or irrelevant. Those who claim that the Bible must be followed word for word and use this claim to justify discrimination against others, are simply focusing in on the pieces which conveniently prop up their prejudices and enable them to interfere where their interference is not needed. After all, the Bible also says we shouldn't eat shellfish, but I don't recall ever seeing Christians picketing a seafood restaurant.

To use the Bible as a means of justifying hatred, judgment, or prejudice is not only completely opposed to the spirit of Jesus' teachings, but it is doing no favor to Christianity in general, which is already struggling to maintain its credibility amongst modern, thinking people.

PrazGod http://www.wondercafe.ca/profile_view.php?loadedFrom=Index&profileid=C071106180328 http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/2006/11/these_are_the_p.html# Tue, Nov 07/06
09:34 pmThis is not about being anti-gay. It is about love. It is an act of love to point out sin. God wants people to be holy. Fornication and homosexuality do not in any way give glory to God. Impure /sexually immoral acts do not honour God. Fornicators and homosexuals want God to bend to their rules. How ridiculous? God loves all people and He created all to love Him - which as Jesus said means, obey His commandments. It will all become very clear very soon. Prepare for the second Pentecost. The Holy Spirit will soon touch every soul on this planet. Then all will see their souls as God sees them and their destination - heaven or hell. Choose purity and seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. May God bless you.

LiveAndLetLive http://www.wondercafe.ca/profile_view.php?loadedFrom=Index&profileid=C071106204110 http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/2006/11/these_are_the_p.html# Tue, Nov 07/06
09:38 pmPrazGod, I just need to know something. How can you possibly be so narrow minded? I mean understand that your Christian, and I suppose that in itself is a good enough reason, but seriously, do you think you are sin free? No? Guess you don't love God then.

Oh and thank you oh so much for ignoring my questions and just regurgitating your ignorance from your original posting.

I'll ask it again in case you missed it the first time. Where is a biblical definition of marriage? Marriage in any culture is and can be very uniquely different so that would suggest that it isn't the same everywhere. CONCEPT!

breathe4her http://www.wondercafe.ca/profile_view.php?loadedFrom=Index&profileid=E071106111824 http://betweentheworlds.typepad.com/betweenaworld/2006/11/these_are_the_p.html# Tue, Nov 07/06
10:07 pmI'm not one to stir up trouble and I'm not about to. Since this is a discussion board and we're all allowed to express our own opinions on such matters, I feel I should discuss mine.

Homosexuality and Heterosexuality are only mere words who define who we are in ways of which we decide who we'll share our lives with. Homosexuality - It doesn't change the fact that we're human. That we don't hurt like you, laugh like you, love like you. That we don't worry about the same things or have families/children that we live for. We're not different than you are, only we are forced to live our lives in the shadows because we're not accepted by people who believe in the word of the Lord.

I believe in Equality. Something the Bible doesn't really teach. If it did, we wouldn't be faced with the issues we are today. Equality should allow you to live your life freely and luckily, Canada started to obtain that when they allowed EVERYONE to marry. LOVING someone isn't a sin. Teaching someone to HATE, is.

By us loving another human, how does that hurt you? How does that affect your life? We don't butt into yours saying being hetero is so wrong. I get that Religion is a big part of it and you only learn what you've been taught - at least I was taught to respect others regardless of their size, colour, sexual orientation, what they did for a living - including religion.

Murdering someone is a crime. Cheating on your spouse is a bad. How come homosexuality is such a big issue? It doesn't kill you. It doesn't ruin your life. It doesn't even affect it.

If me getting married to another woman and living a HAPPY HEALTHY life, offends you, I'm truly sorry you feel that way. How you decide to live yours, is your business and if you're happy, I'm happy for you.
 
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dcyates

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There are churches that are growing. By and large, these churches are conservative in their theology (and, I think not coincidentally, in their politics). The churches that are shrinking--like the UCC--are, by and large, liberal in their theology (and, I think not coincidentally, in their politics). Many of these more liberal churches gradually shifted in that direction, largely in an effort to appear more socially relevant to those who were not regular attendants

Judging from the tone and tenor of much of the UCC's 'Wondercafe.ca', it looks like they're simply trying to affirm themselves in the Left-wing, liberal political and theological stances to which they already adhere. Judging from the fact that it is these types of churches that are bleeding members, I think this website will elicit discussion--much like what already goes on here at CF--but I seriously doubt it will end up putting more butts in their pews. What's the point of getting up on a morning when you could otherwise sleep-in, only to hear from the pulpit pretty much the same message you could read over a relaxing breakfast from the editorial page of the Toronto Star?
 
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