Tzitzits

pinacled · Nov 14, 2015

If our Lord were to lay a sheet down and show a design.
I believe it may be Called Genesis.
A sheet with
4 corners.
Each corner has a book.
To represent
4 seasons.Or,
4 winds.

}2 equinoxes.
}2 Solstice.

Lulav · Nov 14, 2015

There is also that 'sheet' that is 'knit at the corners' that comes down from heaven in Acts 15, many believe this could have been a tallit with tzitziot on the corners.

It might have been the first 'flying carpet'

Lulav · Nov 14, 2015

I wonder how long the tzitzit would be on this one??

Guinness World Record: Largest Tallit Unfurled on Simchat Torah

1,471.74-square-foot, world-record tallit

40 feet by 40 feet and is made of 49 extra-large, 100-percent-wool talleisim sewn together with tzitzis (ritual fringes) hanging from all four corners, and takes up the entire front half of the men’s section of the BRS sanctuary.

by Ryan Haas Read more here

yonah_mishael · Nov 14, 2015

Lulav said:
There is also that 'sheet' that is 'knit at the corners' that comes down from heaven in Acts 15, many believe this could have been a tallit with tzitziot on the corners.

It might have been the first 'flying carpet'

But this suggests that the author of Acts wouldn't know what a tallit was.

yonah_mishael · Nov 14, 2015

Lulav said:
I wonder how long the tzitzit would be on this one??

Guinness World Record: Largest Tallit Unfurled on Simchat Torah

1,471.74-square-foot, world-record tallit

40 feet by 40 feet and is made of 49 extra-large, 100-percent-wool talleisim sewn together with tzitzis (ritual fringes) hanging from all four corners, and takes up the entire front half of the men’s section of the BRS sanctuary.

by Ryan Haas Read more here

If it cannot be worn, is it really a garment? If it isn't a garment, is it really a tallit?

Lulav · Nov 14, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
If it cannot be worn, is it really a garment? If it isn't a garment, is it really a tallit?

When it applies to the Guinness book of world records I don't think that is a concern.

Many congregations use the large full tallit for blessing the children on Shabbat, really too big to 'wear' but used more like a chuppah.

Lulav · Nov 14, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
But this suggests that the author of Acts wouldn't know what a tallit was.

How so? It suggests more to me that the translators didn't know.

in the Greek it is called a 'vessel' but described very oddly and having four beginnings (translated as corners), very odd sounding indeed. What vessel do we know that could be 'let down' from heaven by four?

Lulav · Nov 14, 2015

pat34lee said:
Starting a new thread. I didn't know this would draw many responses.

Other tribes used fringes of differing colors, but as far as I know,
only the Hebrews were commanded to have the blue thread.

According to the website, the Hebrew in the picture is a slave from the
time of Hezekiah, about 700 years after the Exodus from Egypt.
http://www.nccg.org/tzitzit.html

They give no source of that photo. I've looked around the net and can't seem to find a reliable source, I would like to know whose tomb this came from as Egyptian pictoral art like this would be found there in the tomb of a Pharaoh.

yonah_mishael · Nov 14, 2015

Lulav said:
How so? It suggests more to me that the translators didn't know.

in the Greek it is called a 'vessel' but described very oddly and having four beginnings (translated as corners), very odd sounding indeed. What vessel do we know that could be 'let down' from heaven by four?

It was called a "vessel" (σκεῦος) because it contained animals (which were being transported in it). It is called a "sheet" (ὀθόνη) because it was a piece of cloth, apparently linen (since that is what ὀθόνη refers to). It was like a piece of cloth being carried by its four corners and holding all kinds of animals. I don't see anything to tie it to a tallit.

The verse in the LXX that refers to tsitsit reads thus:

Λάλησον τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ καὶ ἐρεῖς πρὸς αὐτοὺς καὶ ποιησάτωσαν ἑαυτοῖς κράσπεδα ἐπὶ τὰ πτερύγια τῶν ἱματίων αὐτῶν εἰς τὰς γενεὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπιθήσετε ἐπὶ τὰ κράσπεδα τῶν πτερυγίων κλῶσμα ὑακίνθινον.

The word "tassels" is κράσπεδα (ציצית). The word "corners" is πτερύγια (כנפים). The word for "garments" is ἱμάτια (בגדים). Not one of these words is present in the Acts 10 or 11 descriptions of Peter's vision. In fact, the word for "string" or "cord" is κλῶσμα (פתיל), and that word isn't present either.

There is no lexical tie between the command to make tsitsit (ציצית = κράσπεδα) in the book of Numbers and the vision of Peter in Acts 10. I don't think I can buy that connection.

Lulav · Nov 15, 2015

That's ok, I just brought it up because it has been hypothesized that was what it could be. A long time ago I had a book on tzitziot and I think it included that deduction. I think the knitting at the four corners might be the way a Gentile would describe this? Knitting involves a weaving of threads....so

And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

'A great sheet' could be compared to a 'tallit gadol' with fringes on the corner.

'The certain vessel' why the need to describe it? I think it may be like the Story in Ezekiel where he tries to describe basically G-d coming to earth in a UFO! How do you describe that? right?

AbbaLove · Nov 15, 2015

Lulav said:
I think the knitting at the four corners might be the way a Gentile would describe this? Knitting involves a weaving of threads....so

And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

'A great sheet' could be compared to a 'tallit gadol' with fringes on the corner.

This is why many still prefer the KJV translation. Whereas, even the NKJV, CJB, OJB and others have removed "knit" from their translation.

Very insightful observation ... "knit at the four corners" ... gives new meaning to the text which consequently gives insightful meaning to ... "let down to earth." Yeshua Ha'Mashiach was "let down to earth" for all mankind.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as theTanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)

yonah_mishael · Nov 15, 2015

Lulav said:
That's ok, I just brought it up because it has been hypothesized that was what it could be. A long time ago I had a book on tzitziot and I think it included that deduction. I think the knitting at the four corners might be the way a Gentile would describe this? Knitting involves a weaving of threads....so

And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

'A great sheet' could be compared to a 'tallit gadol' with fringes on the corner.

'The certain vessel' why the need to describe it? I think it may be like the Story in Ezekiel where he tries to describe basically G-d coming to earth in a UFO! How do you describe that? right?

Neither the NIV nor the Greek says that it was "knit at the four corners." If that's what the KJV says, it isn't supported. Of course, I haven't checked the TR. Maybe it has that, but this isn't the standard reading.

AbbaLove · Nov 15, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
Neither the NIV nor the Greek says that it was "knit at the four corners." If that's what the KJV says, it isn't supported. Of course, I haven't checked the TR. Maybe it has that, but this isn't the standard reading.

Acts 10:11 (1599 Geneva Bible)
And he saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel come down unto him, as it had been a great sheet, knit at the [a]four corners, and was let down to the earth.

[a] So that it seemed to be a foursquare sheet.

The Geneva Bible is one of the most historically significant translations of the Bible into English, preceding the King James translation by 51 years. It was the primary Bible of 16th century Protestantism and was the Bible used by William Shakespeare, Oliver Cromwell, John Knox and John Bunyan, author of Pilgrim’s Progress (1678). It was one of the Bibles taken to America on the Mayflower. The Geneva Bible was used by many English Dissenters, and it was still respected by Oliver Cromwell’s soldiers at the time of the English Civil War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Bible

Why would the GNV translator(s) include the word "knit" without some primary or secondary source justification? Depending on one's interpretation the text also gives the impression that the four corners were capable of being 'knit' (secured) together at the four corners as it was first lowered as "a certain vessel" coming down. Reminds one of how ships once unloaded cargo with a crane by the four corners of a sturdy canvas/rope vessel. The word "knit" certainly seems an appropriate description giving extra meaning to the text as interpreted by Lulav.

yonah_mishael · Nov 15, 2015

AbbaLove said:
Acts 10:11 (1599 Geneva Bible)
And he saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel come down unto him, as it had been a great sheet, knit at the [a]four corners, and was let down to the earth.

[a] So that it seemed to be a foursquare sheet.

The Geneva Bible is one of the most historically significant translations of the Bible into English, preceding the King James translation by 51 years. It was the primary Bible of 16th century Protestantism and was the Bible used by William Shakespeare, Oliver Cromwell, John Knox and John Bunyan, author of Pilgrim’s Progress (1678). It was one of the Bibles taken to America on the Mayflower. The Geneva Bible was used by many English Dissenters, and it was still respected by Oliver Cromwell’s soldiers at the time of the English Civil War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Bible

Why would the GNV translator(s) include the word "knit" without some primary or secondary source justification? Depending on one's interpretation the text also gives the impression that the four corners were capable of being 'knit' (secured) together at the four corners as it was first lowered as "a certain vessel" coming down. Reminds one of how ships once unloaded cargo with a crane by the four corners of a sturdy canvas/rope vessel. The word "knit" certainly seems an appropriate description giving extra meaning to the text as interpreted by Lulav.

Because the Geneva Bible was translated from the same Greek manuscripts as the KJV - that is, from the TR. We should not be surprised when it agrees with the KJV over against modern translations, which are based on later research and earlier manuscripts.

On thing seems clear enough to me: we cannot make interpretations of texts dependent on readings that are uncertain as to their originality. I don't have my copy of NA27 here with me in New York, but I'll be happy to look at the textual support for "knit" when I get home. I don't expect it to be very strong.

Lulav · Nov 15, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
I don't have my copy of NA27 here with me in New York, but I'll be happy to look at the textual support for "knit" when I get home. I don't expect it to be very strong.

No need to wait

καὶ θεωρεῖ τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον καὶ καταβαῖνον σκεῦός τι ὡς ὀθόνην μεγάλην τέσσαρσιν ἀρχαῖς καθιέμενον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,

yonah_mishael · Nov 15, 2015

Lulav said:
No need to wait

καὶ θεωρεῖ τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον καὶ καταβαῖνον σκεῦός τι ὡς ὀθόνην μεγάλην τέσσαρσιν ἀρχαῖς καθιέμενον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,

This is exactly like the text that underlies the NIV. The word "knit" is not in this text. At home, I have both the Textus Receptus and the NA27. I'll check them both when I get back on Wednesday. Checking the NA27 will allow me to see how many manuscripts (if any) have "knit" in the text.

I'll also take a picture to show you what the difference is between looking at the critical apparatus and just quoting the text from the verse. The critical apparatus is what gives us information about what reading is better attested and can more rightly be guessed to be "original."

Lulav · Nov 15, 2015

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he saw Heaven as it was opened, and a garment which was tied at the four corners like a great linen, and it was descending from Heaven to The Earth,

Peshit ta
10:11 and he saw the heavens opened, and a certain vessel bound at the four corners, and like to a great sheet, and it was let down from heaven upon the earth:

Seems both of these somehow got the indication that the four corners were not like the rest of the sheet.

Lulav · Nov 15, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
This is exactly like the text that underlies the NIV. The word "knit" is not in this text. At home, I have both the Textus Receptus and the NA27. I'll check them both when I get back on Wednesday. Checking the NA27 will allow me to see how many manuscripts (if any) have "knit" in the text.

I'll also take a picture to show you what the difference is between looking at the critical apparatus and just quoting the text from the verse. The critical apparatus is what gives us information about what reading is better attested and can more rightly be guessed to be "original."

καὶ θεωρεῖ τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον καὶ καταβαῖνον σκεῦός τι ὡς ὀθόνην μεγάλην τέσσαρσιν ἀρχαῖς καθιέμενον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,

This is from the NA27.

I take it that the translation of 'knit' signifies being gathered together in some fashion as the Aramaic shows ??

Lulav said:
bound at the four corners

Lulav said:
tied at the four corners

Lulav · Nov 15, 2015

Textus Receptus
και θεωρει τον ουρανον ανεωγμενον και καταβαινον επ αυτον σκευος τι ως οθονην μεγαλην τεσσαρσιν αρχαις δεδεμενον και καθιεμενον επι της γης

NA27
καὶ θεωρεῖ τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον καὶ καταβαῖνον σκεῦός τι ὡς ὀθόνην μεγάλην τέσσαρσιν ἀρχαῖς καθιέμενον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,

yonah_mishael · Nov 15, 2015

Lulav said:
Textus Receptus
και θεωρει τον ουρανον ανεωγμενον και καταβαινον επ αυτον σκευος τι ως οθονην μεγαλην τεσσαρσιν αρχαις δεδεμενον και καθιεμενον επι της γης

NA27
καὶ θεωρεῖ τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀνεῳγμένον καὶ καταβαῖνον σκεῦός τι ὡς ὀθόνην μεγάλην τέσσαρσιν ἀρχαῖς καθιέμενον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,

So the difference would the addition of the δεδεμενον και (δεδεμένον καὶ) in the TR. I want to look at the critical apparatus to see what manuscripts read which way.

Tzitzits

walking with the Shekinah

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Y'shua is His Name

Circumcism Of The Heart

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Circumcism Of The Heart

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Y'shua is His Name

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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