Two sides to the law...

[k4c]

Many people who study the Bible do so with a preconceive belief system that causes them to overlook or miss many things. For example, the Ten Commandments have a two roles of powers. One side of the law brings death (judicial role) and the other side brings life (relational role).

Paul sheds some light on these two sides when he says, "The law that was suppose to bring life I found to bring death".

The judicial side of the law that brings death through condemnation because we are guilty before God because of sin and are under the curse of the judicial side of the law. The death of Christ fulfills the judicial side of the law for all who come to Him. It's like having a warrant for your arrest for unpaid speeding tickets. Your whole life is spent hiding from the law because of that outstanding warrant. Then one day someone freely pays your fines and you are set free from the judicial side of the law. You can now live in newness of life, no more running or hiding from the law.

Now, does the fact that your fines have been paid now remove the speed limit signs? No way. As a matter of fact, you will be more appreciative of the speed limit sign now. This is what Paul has been teaching us all throughout his writings. For example, when Paul says. "We are not under the law but under grace". In this statement Paul was referring the judicial side of the law because he is equating it with grace. Grace has to do with punishment held back.

The law on stone in the old covenant was meant to keep us under judicial custody until Christ paid our fine. But once the fine is paid and the curse is removed that same law will be written on the heart. It will give us a new appreciation for the law (speed limit sign). We will delight in the law, we will serve the law with our mind, which will change the outward.

 

[freeindeed2]

Many people who study the Bible do so with a preconceive belief system that causes them to overlook or miss many things. For example, the Ten Commandments have a two roles of powers. One side of the law brings death (judicial role) and the other side brings life (relational role). Paul sheds some light on these two sides when he says, "The law that was suppose to bring life I found to bring death"The judicial side of the law that brings death through condemnation because we are guilty before God because of sin and are under the curse of the judicial side of the law. The death of Christ fulfills the judicial side of the law for all who come to Him. It's like having a warrant for your arrest for unpaid speeding tickets. Your whole life is spent hiding from the law because of that outstanding warrant. Then one day someone freely pays your fines and you are set free from the judicial side of the law. You can now live in newness of life, no more running or hiding from the law. Now, does the fact that your fines have been paid now remove the speed limit signs? No way. As a matter of fact, you will be more appreciative of the speed limit sign now. This is what Paul has been teaching us all throughout his writings. For example, when Paul says. "We are not under the law but under grace". In this statement Paul was referring the judicial side of the law because he is equating it with grace. Grace has to do with punishment held back. The law on stone in the old covenant was meant to keep us under judicial custody until Christ paid our fine. But once the fine is paid and the curse is removed that same law will be written on the heart. It will give us a new appreciation for the law (speed limit sign). We will delight in the law, we will serve the law with our mind, which will change the outward.

I'm not optimistic that you will address this, but here is what Paul says in contrast to what you have said above.

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.

So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

For when we were controlled by our sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Ro 7:1-6

In Christ we died to the law IN ORDER to belong to ANOTHER, Christ himself. The law has NO jurisdiction over us. The complete opposite of what you have said in your OP. What you've presented is 'another gospel' altogether! We died to the law! We have been released FROM THE LAW! We serve in a NEW way, of the Holy Spirit, and NOT in the old way of the written code.

Please address the clear instruction to the church found in Romans 7.

In CHRIST alone...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

For example, the Ten Commandments have a two roles of powers. One side of the law brings death (judicial role) and the other side brings life (relational role).

Would you be willing to discuss this in more depth by limiting our focus to 2 Corinthians 3? In so doing, we can really explore the context more fully. Just let me know if this approach works for you.

As I review 2 Corinthians 3, I conclude that it is problematic to equate the letters engraved on stones with the Spirit as though the two entities are one and the same.

BFA

 

[VictorC]

Many people who study the Bible do so with a preconceive belief system that causes them to overlook or miss many things. For example, the Ten Commandments have a two roles of powers. One side of the law brings death (judicial role) and the other side brings life (relational role). Paul sheds some light on these two sides when he says, "The law that was suppose to bring life I found to bring death"The judicial side of the law that brings death through condemnation because we are guilty before God because of sin and are under the curse of the judicial side of the law. The death of Christ fulfills the judicial side of the law for all who come to Him. It's like having a warrant for your arrest for unpaid speeding tickets. Your whole life is spent hiding from the law because of that outstanding warrant. Then one day someone freely pays your fines and you are set free from the judicial side of the law. You can now live in newness of life, no more running or hiding from the law. Now, does the fact that your fines have been paid now remove the speed limit signs? No way. As a matter of fact, you will be more appreciative of the speed limit sign now. This is what Paul has been teaching us all throughout his writings. For example, when Paul says. "We are not under the law but under grace". In this statement Paul was referring the judicial side of the law because he is equating it with grace. Grace has to do with punishment held back. The law on stone in the old covenant was meant to keep us under judicial custody until Christ paid our fine. But once the fine is paid and the curse is removed that same law will be written on the heart. It will give us a new appreciation for the law (speed limit sign). We will delight in the law, we will serve the law with our mind, which will change the outward.

Do you have any idea how many times we have heard this worn out line regarding speed limits, while you ignore the police officer who exceeds the speed of the transgressor with complete impunity?

And in order for you to make the claim stick that the ten commandments form the basis of a relationship, you would need to find Scriptural support for such a thesis. That isn't consistent with the tenor the first covenant was dictated in.

It would seem you're simply starting a new thread to evade answering posts in the other threads you had initiated.

Do you believe it's okay to freely, willfuly and with knowledge, break one of the Ten Commandments?

You had charged that it was a satanic influence that took away the sabbath, and then you changed your tune to charge that mankind changed the sabbath, and this entire time no one can elicit an answer from you to tell what the ten commandments was (hint: singular). It would seem that you don't want to know the commandments of God, and your earlier accusations regarding Who it is that took the sabbath away are not going to be answered. That's was the impetus for this line of questions that you continue to evade.

Consider this short excerpt from Hebrews 10:9:

He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

And answer these questions:

• Who is the "He" this passage refers to?
• What is the "first" a reference to?
• What is the "second" a reference to?
• Which legal body is the sabbath contained in, which is addressed in the previous verses by comments pertaining to the burnt offerings?

 

[k4c]

The law on stone was given because people were not living up to how God created us to be. It was made for sinners, those who are living outside of how God created us to be.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 We also know this: law was not made for a good man, but for people who are lawless, rebels, ungodly, sinners, unholy, not religious, father-killers, mother-killers, murderers, sexual sinners, homosexuals, slave traders, liars, and those who break promises. These and other things are against the healthy teaching.

God not only wants us to love each other He wants us to love each other with a pure heart. The law written on the heart and the guidance of the Holy Spirit will help us and cause us to love with a pure heart towards God and man.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

Acts 24:16 "This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

When you come to Christ you are no longer under the old covenant which governed the outward actions of man through condemnation and fear of punishment but had nothing to do with a love relationship within the heart.

In Christ the stone is taken away and the words of Christ which are founded and established from the law based on love for God and man will be etched into the heart.

Roamsn 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The law on stone was given because people were not living up to how God created us to be. It was made for sinners, those who are living outside of how God created us to be.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 We also know this: law was not made for a good man, but for people who are lawless, rebels, ungodly, sinners, unholy, not religious, father-killers, mother-killers, murderers, sexual sinners, homosexuals, slave traders, liars, and those who break promises. These and other things are against the healthy teaching.

God not only wants us to love each other He wants us to love each other with a pure heart. The law written on the heart and the guidance of the Holy Spirit will help us and cause us to love with a pure heart towards God and man.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

Acts 24:16 "This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

When you come to Christ you are no longer under the old covenant which governed the outward actions of man through condemnation and fear of punishment but had nothing to do with a love relationship within the heart.

In Christ the stone is taken away and the words of Christ which are founded and established from the law based of love for God and man.

Roamsn 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

In view of the ground covered in the above post, should I assume that you've declined the following offer from me?

Would you be willing to discuss this in more depth by limiting our focus to 2 Corinthians 3?
​

BFA

 

[VictorC]

The law written on the heart and the guidance of the Holy Spirit will help us and cause us to love with a pure heart towards God and man.

We acknowledge that God's "My law" isn't according to Sinai, akin to a durable chair that will last forever. Adventism is reliant on another chair that God determined faulty, broken, and ready to be replaced.

When you come to Christ you are no longer under the old covenant which governed the outward actions of man through condemnation and fear of punishment but had nothing to do with a love relationship within the heart.

We acknowledge that we aren't under a commandment related to the sabbath, which is consistent with your statement.

 

[freeindeed2]

The law on stone was given because people were not living up to how God created us to be. It was made for sinners, those who are living outside of how God created us to be.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 We also know this: law was not made for a good man, but for people who are lawless, rebels, ungodly, sinners, unholy, not religious, father-killers, mother-killers, murderers, sexual sinners, homosexuals, slave traders, liars, and those who break promises. These and other things are against the healthy teaching.

God not only wants us to love each other He wants us to love each other with a pure heart. The law written on the heart and the guidance of the Holy Spirit will help us and cause us to love with a pure heart towards God and man.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.

Acts 24:16 "This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

When you come to Christ you are no longer under the old covenant which governed the outward actions of man through condemnation and fear of punishment but had nothing to do with a love relationship within the heart.

In Christ the stone is taken away and the words of Christ which are founded and established from the law based of love for God and man.

Roamsn 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Who are you talking to? Are you aware that I and others have responded to your OP with scripture and are waiting for your response?

 

[k4c]

We acknowledge that God's "My law" isn't according to Sinai, akin to a durable chair that will last forever. Adventism is reliant on another chair that God determined faulty, broken, and ready to be replaced.
We acknowledge that we aren't under a commandment related to the sabbath, which is consistent with your statement.

When God writes His law on the heart through love and the power of God's Spirit dwelling within you will not hear standments like this, "We acknowledge that we aren't under a commandment related to the sabbath, which is consistent with your statement."

When the Spirit of God is working in us we will find our attidtues towards the law will change. We will hear statements such as:

"Oh, how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day.You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies; For they are ever with me."

"I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law."

"I hate and abhor lying, But I love Your law."

"Great peace have those who love Your law, And nothing causes them to stumble."

 

[VictorC]

When God writes His law on the heart through love and the power of God's Spirit dwelling within you will not hear standments like this, "We acknowledge that we aren't under a commandment related to the sabbath, which is consistent with your statement."

When the Spirit of God is working in us we will find our attidtues towards the law will change. We will hear statements such as:

"Oh, how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day.You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies; For they are ever with me."

"I hate the double-minded, But I love Your law."

"I hate and abhor lying, But I love Your law."

"Great peace have those who love Your law, And nothing causes them to stumble."

So why can't you locate a sabbath ordinance anywhere within the commandments of God? Did you forget our lesson concerning the familiar noun of the chair?
we have a new chair, not the one to be disposed

The old covenant is that the chair is on one side of the room and the new covenant is that the chair is moved to the other side of the room.

Since we're using a familiar noun, we can remain with it for a while.

Hebrews 8 describes the old chair:

• The old chair is faulty: if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
• The old chair was violated, i.e. broken: they did not continue in My covenant.
• The old chair is obsolete: In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete.
• The old chair is ready for disposal: Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 contain a narrative of God making a new covenant, or a new chair, that is not according to the pattern of the old chair: I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

While you assert that moving the chair across the room somehow made it new (which is ubsurd), the narrative you're confronted with tells a entirely different story: the old chair is disposed, and God made a new chair of an entirely different design.

The old covenant is that the law is written of stone and the new covenant is the law written on the heart.

Pretty simple...

I don't believe that I'm the first to break the news to you: Sinai is according to Sinai, and God's promise is that He would write His "My law" into His redeemed that isn't according to Sinai.

Until you make this distinction that what (or rather, Who) has entered into us isn't from Sinai, you aren't going to make the smallest effort to determine what Scripture is telling us in its plain language.

 

[k4c]

So why can't you locate a sabbath ordinance anywhere within the commandments of God? Did you forget our lesson concerning the familiar noun of the chair?
we have a new chair, not the one to be disposed

Not only did Jesus teach us how to keep the law, including the Sabbath the Sabbath was kept even after His death.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Do you believe the words of Jesus.

Let me ask you this question once again.

Do you believe it's okay to freely, willfuly and with knowledge, break one of the Ten Commandments?

 

[VictorC]

Not only did Jesus teach us how to keep the law, including the Sabbath the Sabbath was kept even after His death.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Do you believe the words of Jesus.

Let me ask you this question once again.

Do you believe it's okay to freely, willfuly and with knowledge, break one of the Ten Commandments?

Apparently the one who seems unable to believe the Words of Jesus has been you, k4c. Isn't this why you can't answer questions posed to your attention, refuse to acknowledge God's redemption from the entity clearly defined, and keep telling us that a legal body was written into our hearts and minds after having your idea refuted over and over with Scripture?

You know the questions by now. Please answer them.

Consider this short excerpt from Hebrews 10:9:

He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

And answer these questions:

• Who is the "He" this passage refers to?
• What is the "first" a reference to?
• What is the "second" a reference to?
• Which legal body is the sabbath contained in, which is addressed in the previous verses by comments pertaining to the burnt offerings?

 

[k4c]

Apparently the one who seems unable to believe the Words of Jesus has been you, k4c. Isn't this why you can't answer questions posed to your attention, refuse to acknowledge God's redemption from the entity clearly defined, and keep telling us that a legal body was written into our hearts and minds after having your idea refuted over and over with Scripture?

You know the questions by now. Please answer them.

Consider this short excerpt from Hebrews 10:9:

He takes away the first that He may establish the second.


And answer these questions:

• Who is the "He" this passage refers to?
• What is the "first" a reference to?
• What is the "second" a reference to?
• Which legal body is the sabbath contained in, which is addressed in the previous verses by comments pertaining to the burnt offerings?

Redemption had to come because people broke God's law. God redemeed us because of His grace but not to continue to break the law.

Romans 6:2-1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Let me ask you this question once again.

Do you believe it's okay to freely, willfuly and with knowledge, break one of the Ten Commandments?

 

[VictorC]

Redemption had to come because people broke God's law. God redemeed us because of His grace but not to continue to break the law.

You fail to acknowledge that we were redeemed from the law, and God's promise to forgive our sins continues after that redemption. Yet you claim that you can't break the law, which explains that you haven't bee redeemed from it, and that law does not have the attribute of God's forgiveness included into it: it demands atonement by blood, or else it will take your blood.

Romans 6:2-1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Yet you have confused sin that can be forgiven with transgressions that cannot be forgiven.

Let me ask you this question once again.

Do you believe it's okay to freely, willfuly and with knowledge, break one of the Ten Commandments?

Since that covenant doesn't apply to us, and isn't among the commandments of God, why should I respond to a question wherein you cannot establish jurisdiction?

You need to explain how you expect to get away with continual transgressions of the sabbath ordinance in light of your own assertion.

 

[k4c]

You fail to acknowledge that we were redeemed from the law, and God's promise to forgive our sins continues after that redemption. Yet you claim that you can't break the law, which explains that you haven't bee redeemed from it, and that law does not have the attribute of God's forgiveness included into it: it demands atonement by blood, or else it will take your blood.

Redeemed from the law of sin and death...amen.

Do you believe it's okay to freely, willfuly and with knowledge, break one of the Ten Commandments?

 

[VictorC]

Redeemed from the law of sin and death...amen.

Pray tell, wherein the body of the law of sin and death did you find the phrase, "You shall not covet"?
That is the quote Paul furnished from the law to identify the legal body we have been delivered from in Romans 7:6-7:

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

Every instance of "the law" used in this passage is consistent.
Go and find that phrase in sin and death.
It is a quote directly from Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21 in the ten commandments.

Do you believe it's okay to freely, willfuly and with knowledge, break one of the Ten Commandments?

You still fail to establish jurisdiction of a covenant that was taken away long before I was born. And obviously, it does not retain jurisdiction over me. I can't break something that doesn't have a claim over me.

 

[k4c]

Pray tell, wherein the body of the law of sin and death did you find the phrase, "You shall not covet"?
That is the quote Paul furnished from the law to identify the legal body we have been delivered from in Romans 7:6-7:

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

Every instance of "the law" used in this passage is consistent.
Go and find that phrase in sin and death.
It is a quote directly from Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21 in the ten commandments.

You still fail to establish jurisdiction of a covenant that was taken away long before I was born. And obviously, it does not retain jurisdiction over me. I can't break something that doesn't have a claim over me.

Do you believe honoring your father and mother has a promise attached to it?

Ephesians 6:13 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.''

What do you think he was referring to when he said this, "which is the first commandment with promise"?

Do you believe it's a sin to dishonor your mother and father?

 

[Kira Light]

How is it that a word for word copy paste is the perfect answer to two entirely different posts?

Extremely lucky I guess.

 

[Joe67]

k4c,

Ex 32:15
15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. KJV

Are these the 2 sides of the law to which you were witnessing?

Joe

 

[VictorC]

How is it that a word for word copy paste is the perfect answer to two entirely different posts?

Extremely lucky I guess.

There is a lot of copying going on, and I just answered the same response k4c left for me here on the parallel thread. But notice, he hasn't responded to my post at all.