Two questions about abortion

[Ojuice5001]

1. Why has the rate of abortion increased in the past few decades?

2. Is it morally permissible? I have to say, I don't know. Not only can't I tell which side has better arguments, but the issue is remote from anything in my direct experience. But I still have an open mind on this one.

Closely related, would society be stabler if abortion were made illegal? And does each individual abortion lead to greater or lesser stability in human society?

 

[martinluther2003]

I have to say, I don't know. Not can't I tell which side has better arguments, but the issue is remote from anything in my direct experience.

is that english?

 

[Wollstonecraft]

1) There are more people in the world. Therefore more sex. Therefore more babies. Therefore increased frequency of people not wanting to pay the price for irresponsible sexual behavior.
2) In my opinion no. However I do not make the choices in this country, or in fact any country. All I can do is abstain and pray that my less "controlled" friends have the good sense to protect themselves from ever having to face that choice.

Society might be made a bit more stable if there was a viable third option. Cryogenic storage of fetal tissue for possible future use in populating other planets may seem like a Sci-Fi pipe dream, but it would be better than just killing the potential life that God has allowed to bloom. For the second part of that question, I think it depends on your definition of stability. Each person that is born has within them the possibility for good or evil. The choices we make can better the world for those surrounding us, or can make it worse. I believe everyone should be given the opprotunity to live their life to the fullest, but I also believe that our current state of societal/political world is a poor place to bring a life into.


So... did that make much sense?

 

[Oblio]

There are more people in the world. Therefore more sex. Therefore more babies. Therefore increased frequency of people not wanting to pay the price for irresponsible sexual behavior.

Rate of (or frequency) usually means that the measurand is normalized by a divisor (usually, but not always time). I presume that the OP meant this. IOW, abortions per 1000 pregnancies have increased. Why, I haven't a clue.

Is it moral ? Not from an Orthodox Christian point of view.

 

[Ojuice5001]

is that english?

I left out the word "only" by mistake. Happens all the time, but usually I catch it before hitting "send reply."

 

[Oblio]

I left out the word "only" by mistake. Happens all the time, but usually I catch it before hitting "send reply."

Fair enough, but don't let happen again !

 

[jayswife29]

According to the seminar I went through (to get my training to become a grief counselor for a pregnancy helpline) abortions have risen due to a few things...the methods are becoming more accessible, for example the ru-486 pill. Pop a pill today and tomorrow youre all better. Honestly I think abortion has become the newest form of birth control, and no it's not or should not be morally right from a christian view point.

 

[ej]

1. Why has the rate of abortion increased in the past few decades?

My guess would be that society projects sexuality, and it affects us all, whether we like it and approve of it or not. Sex sells (cars, perfume, magazines, films... you name it, sex probably sells it...)

2. Is it morally permissible? I have to say, I don't know. Not only can't I tell which side has better arguments, but the issue is remote from anything in my direct experience. But I still have an open mind on this one.

IMHO, no.

Closely related, would society be stabler if abortion were made illegal?

No. I've worked in a country where a lot of illegal abortions are carried out inadequately. The results can be disastrous, believe me.
Call me a hypocrite, but I'd rather see controlled abortion than an attempt to banish it resulting in unnecessary death because people abort illegally.

And does each individual abortion lead to greater or lesser stability in human society?

Good question. I'm not sure, and I'm not sure how you'd find out

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Echoing Emmajane - my preferred option is to see abortion legal, safe, and rare.

 

[tcampen]

1) There are more people in the world. Therefore more sex. Therefore more babies. Therefore increased frequency of people not wanting to pay the price for irresponsible sexual behavior.

The irony in this statement is stagerring. In an attempt to oppose future abortions, this statement will actually contribute to MORE abortions. How? Look at what the statement says. It equates an unborn child with having to "pay the price," rather than a beautiful life worth celebrating. Since when did Pro-Life mean being so demeaning towards the unborn child or the mother of that child?

Given this attidute, what would a pregnant 17 year old want to do?
1. Terminate the pregnancy privately and continue with her life (along with any emotional trauma of the abortion), or
2. "Pay the price" publicly, carrying a pregnancy (and later a child) around like a scarlet letter for people like the poster to point fingers at as an example of "irresponsible sexual behavior."

Hey, it's a tough choice, but obviously the 17 year old would do whatever it took to avoid option #2. Duh. Just think about it.

Again, irony can be pretty darn ironic sometimes, especially when those who oppose abortions unwittingly creating the very environment that encourages women to have more of them. Until the Pro-Life movement makes greater strides in eliminating this pervasive and destructive attitute, don't expect the abortion numbers to go down, regardless of whether its legal or illegal.

 

[feral]

1. Why has the rate of abortion increased in the past few decades?

2. Is it morally permissible? I have to say, I don't know. Not only can't I tell which side has better arguments, but the issue is remote from anything in my direct experience. But I still have an open mind on this one.

Closely related, would society be stabler if abortion were made illegal? And does each individual abortion lead to greater or lesser stability in human society?

I think abortion rates have increased for two reasons. One, abortion is no longer limited to back alleys. Everyone knows it's out there and fairly easy to access. Two more people view it as an acceptable thing to do. It is no longer so taboo or evil, it's considered fairly normal.

I don't know if it's moral or not. I don't believe it is moral to use abortion like birth control and to terminate pregnancy because you were negligent and irresponsible and didn't use birth control or abstinence. I do however think that in the case of rape or incest, or among the very young, abortion should be a choice. It's not moral to force a child who is pregnant by their father to carry a baby to term, nor is it moral to require a rape victim to give birth to the offspring of the rapist. I'm sorry because I know it isn't the childs fault, but I could never carry to term a child caused by rape. I think those who can are wonderful and brave, but I don't think anyone should be forced to. Tough issue, really, because it is not the childs fault but it isn't the mothers either...and you have to choose who gets to suffer.

Society would not be more stable. We have lived through illegal abortion, and many women died in back alley abortion clinics, treated by untrained doctors and those who simply had no medical training. Forcing women to risk their lives for an abortion is not right nor will it create stability. What will make society more stable is a world in which sex is not glorified and where the consequences of casual sex are shown. If every time a character on tv had sex her anguish, worry, fear and fright were shown, it would be a deterrant. If characters were regularly shown dealing with pregnancy, caring for a baby on $500 a month and suffering through the final stages of syphilis and aids, maybe people would think before hopping into bed with someone they met at the bar, or whatever.

 

[tcampen]

Feral,

great post. I don't agree with everything you said, but it was certainly heartfelt, and a refreshingly candid take on the issue.

 

[jayem]

In the U.S., abortions peaked in the early 90's, and have decreased in the last 10 years. Some of this may be due to more responsible sexual behavior and use of birth control, but decreasing availability of abortion providers, more hassle in obtaining the procedure, and more personal objection to abortion are probably also factors.

I think that terminating a healthy pregnancy purely for reasons of personal convenience is wrong, but I don't want the state to criminalize it. I just think, in this particular circumstance, that it's a worse evil to give the government that kind of power than to allow people to make bad choices. One can have low rates of abortion without very restrictive laws. In the Netherlands, abortion is legal up to about 24 weeks, and yet they have one third of the rate of abortions in this country. Same is true in much of western Europe and Scandinavia. And they still have very sexually open societies. But there is a strong ethic regarding use of birth control. Why can't we do the same?

 

[panterapat]

1. Why has the rate of abortion increased in the past few decades?

2. Is it morally permissible? I have to say, I don't know. Not only can't I tell which side has better arguments, but the issue is remote from anything in my direct experience. But I still have an open mind on this one.

Closely related, would society be stabler if abortion were made illegal? And does each individual abortion lead to greater or lesser stability in human society?

Actually that is four questions, but who's counting?

1) An increasingly hedonistic society, selfishness, the burden of sin, moral reveletism, have all added to the increase in abortions. (Actually, recent polls show that the tide is turning away from abortion. The approval rate of abortion is about 50-50 now.)

2) The Bible tells us, "Thou shalt not kill." God told us in the Old Testament, "Before you were born I knew you." Biology tell us that human life is formed at conception. Shouldn't this innocent, fragile life be protected?

3) There is an axiom which says, "The measure of a society is determined by the protection it gives to the weakest among them." Respect for pre-born life increases the respect for ALL life. This respect for life is a foundation for a stable society.

4) The statistics on women who have aborted is very sad. They are more likely to face infertility, they are more likely to alienate their other children, they are more likely to commit suicide, there is a direct link between abortion and increased incidence of breast cancer, post abortion syndrome can be very tramatic, those who have aborted are much more likely to develop psychological problems. All of this contributes to a very unstable person which contributes to an unstable society.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[tcampen]

Yes, abortions are sad. But considering they are legal, what are those who oppose abortions doing to eliminate the desire to have an abortion? We all know that it's legal status will not prevent abortions - never did and never will.

It certainly isn't by shaking one's finger at the 19 years old college student and saying "Now you have to pay the price for your irresponsible sexual behavior!" What has that approach ever done besides encourage more abortions?

It's easy to spout idologies, anyone can do that. I'm still waiting for an advocate to provide some realistic solutions - on both sides. And I stress the word "realistic."

 

[panterapat]

Birth-right
Mom's house
Allice Paul House
Catholic Charities
The Open Door
Teen moms homes

There are a multitude of agencies and volunteer groups there to help the unwed mother.

Loving families are another cure

What excuse do wed and well off mothers have for an abortion other than selfishness?

 

[jayem]

What excuse do wed and well off mothers have for an abortion other than selfishness?

Well, medical problems, for one thing. They may not be extremely common, but they're not rare. I work in health care. I've seen many women with chronic medical problems who became pregnant (and not always through carelessness--diaphragms slip, other medications interfere with oral contraceptives, and the "rhythm" method can be quite unreliable, especially in women with irregular periods.) Many times, high risk pregnancy can be managed well with good prenatal care, but some conditions can be worsened with pregnancy. I saw a pregnant patient with lupus, which can definitely exacerbate. I saw a 6 week pregnant woman have a serious heart attack. I've seen pregnant women get leukemia, Hodgkin's disease, and breast cancer. Radiation, and some types of chemotherapy, especially early in pregnany may actually cause a miscarriage, or severely damage the fetus. Sometimes a women may forego treatment until delivery, but 5 or 6 months delay may lessen her chances for recovery. The main point is that these problems are not black and white. Terminating a pregnancy for medical reasons is sometimes necessary, and it's a matter of medical judgement. The decision must be left in the hands of the woman and her doctors, and they have to have plenty of leeway. Except in the most egregious cases, it is absolutely wrong for the state to interfere.

I applaud organizations that support pregnant women, and all voluntary means to reduce abortions are wonderful and should be encouraged. But it must be voluntary. A rigid, absolutist opposition to all abortion is just dead wrong, and doesn't reflect the real world.

 

[tcampen]

Birth-right
Mom's house
Allice Paul House
Catholic Charities
The Open Door
Teen moms homes

There are a multitude of agencies and volunteer groups there to help the unwed mother.

Loving families are another cure

What excuse do wed and well off mothers have for an abortion other than selfishness?

Maybe I had something a little different in mind. Alice Paul House is for victims of violence. Open Door is an adoption agency, but there are plenty of those already. Now, Mom's House is right on target with post birth care.

There are some great examples, but they aren't nearly as pervasive as they need to be to adequately address the issue. It need to be clear that no momatter who you are, or where you are, you can still be a good single mother and a successful person despite having a child - rather than being stuck in the Catch-22 of government aid.

It's a good start. Now, if we could just change that "pregnancy as punishment" attitude, we might be getting somewhere.

 

[panterapat]

Pregnancy is a miracle. Every child is a gift from God!

 

[panterapat]

jayem,


Lets be generous and say that 1% of abortions are due to medical problems of the mother. Does this justify the 99% of the 30 million abortions performed in this country alone???

In Christ, Patrick