Two Groups in the One Body

[fellowheir]

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There are two groups that make up that "one body", "fellowheirs, and of the same body"

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

To show this distinction to all is to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God...to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

There are the "we" "who first trusted in Christ"

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

beginning with the the apostle Paul

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

and including the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians.

These were those to whom Paul was first sent. Here is Paul recalling what the risen ascended Lord Jesus Christ told him in Acts 9. Look at what it says at the end of verse 17. It says, "Delivering thee from the people (Jews), and from the Gentiles unto whom NOW I SEND THEE,"

Acts 26:16-17 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

Here they are:

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Here they are again~to the Jew first and also to the Greek:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But unto them which are called, BOTH JEWS AND GREEKS (Both means two-Jews and Greeks)

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

They had a hope. They were in the commonwealth of Israel. They were in the promise

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All Greeks were Gentiles, but not all Gentiles were Greeks.


The Ephesians were Gentiles OUTSIDE of the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise (such as we). These Gentiles in time past had no hope!

Ephesians 2:11-12 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

These Ephesians are of the "ye" whom "also trusted"

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

These are Gentiles that Paul became a prisoner for when he revealed the vision:

Please also notice the "FOR I WILL SEND THEE" far hence unto the Gentiles.

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Acts 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

What is that mystery of Ephesians 3?!

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

But now!

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And again showing the two groups in the ONE Body of Christ~
"that he might reconcile BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross

the "you which were afar off" (like the Ephesians) and the "them that were nigh"- the those who first trusted...

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

This, my grace brothers and sisters is the fellowship of the mystery! Praise the Lord!

Ephesians 3:7-12 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Not only are there two groups, there will be two raptures.

 

[zeke37]

no. one.

 

[Dispy]

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There are two groups that make up that "one body", "fellowheirs, and of the same body"

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

To show this distinction to all is to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God...to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

There are the "we" "who first trusted in Christ"

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

beginning with the the apostle Paul

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

and including the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians.

These were those to whom Paul was first sent. Here is Paul recalling what the risen ascended Lord Jesus Christ told him in Acts 9. Look at what it says at the end of verse 17. It says, "Delivering thee from the people (Jews), and from the Gentiles unto whom NOW I SEND THEE,"

Acts 26:16-17 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

Here they are:

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Here they are again~to the Jew first and also to the Greek:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But unto them which are called, BOTH JEWS AND GREEKS (Both means two-Jews and Greeks)

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

They had a hope. They were in the commonwealth of Israel. They were in the promise

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All Greeks were Gentiles, but not all Gentiles were Greeks.


The Ephesians were Gentiles OUTSIDE of the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise (such as we). These Gentiles in time past had no hope!

Ephesians 2:11-12 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

These Ephesians are of the "ye" whom "also trusted"

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

These are Gentiles that Paul became a prisoner for when he revealed the vision:

Please also notice the "FOR I WILL SEND THEE" far hence unto the Gentiles.

Acts 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Acts 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

What is that mystery of Ephesians 3?!

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

But now!

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And again showing the two groups in the ONE Body of Christ~
"that he might reconcile BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross

the "you which were afar off" (like the Ephesians) and the "them that were nigh"- the those who first trusted...

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

This, my grace brothers and sisters is the fellowship of the mystery! Praise the Lord!

Ephesians 3:7-12 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: 12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

The Gentiles were "set aside" at the Tower of Babel in Genes 11. God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes (temporarily set aside), according to Rm. 11:7-12. "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rm. 11:32).

Therefore, there is no longer distinction between the Jew and Gentile. God is not a respector of persons (cf. Acts 10:34) (see also Rm. 10:12, Gal. 3-23). All believers are members of "One Body", the Body of Christ.

The "roots" of ALL believers go back to Abram/Abraham.Read Romans 4:12 - 13. "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, WHILE HE HAD BEING YET UNCIRCUMICSED. For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or his seed, through the Law, but through the righteousness of FAITH.

Those verses just tell us that justification/salvation is apart from the Law, even while Abram was still a Gentile and before his name was changed to Abraham and he became "a Jew in the flesh".

The covenant to Abram was when he was still a Gentile and was unconditional. After his name was changed to Abraham and required to become a "Jew in the flesh" by being circumcised, the unconditional promise to Abram wasn't changed, but new conditions were added to receive the promise. Any Jew that refused to be circumcised, was "cut off from his people; he hath broken the covenant" (Genesis 17:14).

After Abram's name was changed to Abraham, he is no longer referred to as Abram, even when they are talking about the times in which he lived before his name was changed.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh (when he was still called Abram and prior to his name change and his circumcision), hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul is speaking of the time in Genesis 15:5,6. Verse 2 identifies to who God is speaking is Abram. Abram was call a friend of the Lord and was declared righteous (justified/saved). Abram was justified/saved just as members of the Body of Christ are today. By FAITH ALONE and not by any deeds/works of the Law.

In contrast to this, James tells us in his Letter 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

James is talking about the time in Genesis 22 when circumcised Abraham, (a Jew in the flesh), at he was justified by doing a work to demonstrate his faith.

So the roots of ALL BELIEVERS go back to Abram/Abraham and are called the children of God. Those that are the seed of Abram are saved by FAITH ALONE, just as members of the Body of Christ are today, and those that were required to perform deed/works of the Law were saved/justified by doing the deed/works of the law BY FAITH. Salvation/justification has always been on the basis of FAITH. Now read Galations in that light.

Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seed, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

God made many promises to the physical seed of Abraham, such as land, that his descendants would become a great nation, etc. Paul emphasizes the fact that the word "seed" is in the singular, and it is in reference to Christ. Christ is the pinnacle of the promises made to Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What promise do we have through Abraham's seed Jesus? SALVATION.

As a Gentile, I am a child of God, saved by GRACE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and my roots go all the way back to Abram. All believers that were saved during the dispensation of the Law, are children of God, and saved by FAITH which was demonstrated by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Isn't Jesus the root in which the promise of salvation/justification is based for ALL mankind?

I, as a member of "the Body of Chirst" am not a Jew or "spiritual" Jew. My salvation/justifiction comes from Chirst through my FAITH ALONE in His Cross work, Just like Abram was saved/justified by just believing God.

All those that were saved/justified during the "dispensation of the Law" are saved by FAITH by demonstrating that faith by doing what the deed/works of the Law required.

The Cross work of Christ is the root of ALL those that believe.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, and the formation of "the Body of Christ", There were different instructions addressed to Israel then to the Gentiles. If a Gentile wanted to serve the God of Israel, then the Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

Are the Instructions in righteousness to Israel, under the Laws of Moses, the same as the instructions of righteousness to the Body of Chirst?

I will follow the instructions that God gave to Paul for members of the Body of Christ. I will not mix them with the instructions that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel.

 

[crossnote]

I don't follow 'the roots of all believers go back to Abraham'.?

In Hebrews it speaks of Abel (11.4), Enoch (11.5) and Noah (11.7) all living before Abraham.

 

[Danoh]

I don't follow 'the roots of all believers go back to Abraham'.?

In Hebrews it speaks of Abel (11.4), Enoch (11.5) and Noah (11.7) all living before Abraham.

Dispy's point is nevertheless covered by Gal. 3:9. In that, just as it is with those "which be of faith" after Abraham, so too with those which were "of faith" before him:

Gal 3:9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

What all have in common is their being "of faith."

By faith Abel offered up... by faith Enoch was translated... by faith Noah..." Heb. 11.

As for two groups making up the one Body, that is incorrect, as Paul's Apostleship was to the heathen, Gal. 2:7-9, which, per Romans 9-11, in light of Act 7:56, itself in light of Mat. 12:32,33, and thus, of Romans 2, "the heathen" were now both those once called Gentiles in the flesh, and those Jews God had now concluded "uncircumcised in heart," and thus as bad off as the Gentiles had been when He first turned from them and called Abram out from a Gentile nation, Ur of Chaldee.

Now, a Jew has to come to God, not as Jew, but as just another lost Gentile, for "blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in," Roman. 11:25-27.

The fellow heirs is a reference to being fellow heirs with Christ, as members of His Body. This is a status Israel does not have. Israel is a commonwealth not a fellow heir. Thus the Body and Israel are fellow citizens but not fellow heirs. They are His subjects who will reign under Him, we are members of His Body and thus, shall reign with Him.

This was a mystery.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[Dispy]

I don't follow 'the roots of all believers go back to Abraham'.?

In Hebrews it speaks of Abel (11.4), Enoch (11.5) and Noah (11.7) all living before Abraham.

I agree with Danoh.

Further, From Paul's Epistles we learn Gospel (good news) of the mystery. That salvation in this dispensation of Grace is based on FAITH alone in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:1-4) of Christ. It was not that way prior to the Pauline revelations which had been keep secret since the world began.

Only one time in Scripture do we find the phrase "mystery of the Gospel" It is in Paul letter to the Ephesians (6:19): "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel".

Adam and Eve, Able, Noah, Moses, Abram/Abraham, Moses never knew Jesus or what He would accomplish. They were justified by believing/doing what God required at that point in time in human history. The purpose of the Cross was yet unknown. They did not look forward to the Cross as some preach and believe.

Under the Law, sins were atoned by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Doing those deed/works of the Law by FAITH only covered the sins of the past, not future sins, because the "once for all" sacrifice had not yet been made.

In this present dispensation of Grace, when a believer dies that believer's body is buried in the ground, and his Soul is ushered into the presents of God. That was not true in the OT or earthly ministry of Christ.

In Luke 2:19-31 we have the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. When they died, they were placed in the grave/ hell (the place where the dead go). In hell we had two compartments seperated by a gulf. The rich man was in torment, and Abram was in "Abraham's bossum", a place of pleasure. Abraham's bossum (paradise) is now in heaven. Why weren't those OT saints ushered into heaven as we are today? Because their sins were only covered and not yet payed for.

When Christ ascended on high, He lead captivity (those believers captive in the Abraham's bossum) captive, and gave gifts unto men (cf. Eph. 4:8). Ah, now those OT saints souls are in paradise which is in heaven.

Had the OT saints looked forward to the purpose of the Cross, Lucifer would have "worked like the devil" (figuratively speaking) to keep Christ from the Cross (cf. 1 Cor. 2:7-8).

Therefore, I conclude that the "mystery (secret) of the gospel (good news)" is the Cross. Going back to Adam, all that are saved is because of Christ's finised work on the Cross. It is through the Pauline revelations which were kept secret since the world began.

Speaking of Jesus in Rom 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (satisfaction) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past (since the fall of man), through the forbearance of God".

 

[James4_14]

Acts 28 is the dispensational boundary and was caused by rejection of Christ.. The mystery in Ephesians and Colossians was "hid IN God" never before revealed until Paul received the revelation while in prison in Rome in 63 AD. This calling is a NEW creation. All distinctions between Israel and the Gentiles are wiped out. It is a new and higher calling to the Heaven far above all where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God.
We are not tied in to any of the promises made to Abraham. His promises were for an earthly Kingdom and the New Jerusalem that descends from Heaven. Neither of the two are "far above all".
When our calling was made known in Ephesians and Colossians this revelation fulfilled the word of God. Nothing can be added or taken from it. This mystery is not the mystery of Christ as some assume.
Our "church" did not begin at Pentecost. There was not a Gentile in the bunch. Israel was the only entity in view there.

Our calling is the only one chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world:

***Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation (overthrow) of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

 

[James4_14]

When Christ ascended on high, He lead captivity (those believers captive in the Abraham's bossum) captive, and gave gifts unto men (cf. Eph. 4:8). Ah, now those OT saints souls are in paradise which is in heaven.

Dispy:

***Eph 4:8
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
***Col 2:15
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Ephesians and Colossians are parallel epistles. It was the principalities and powers led captive and has the idea "at the point of a spear".

 

[James4_14]

PS:

Abraham's bosom is Rabbincal tradition.

 

[riverrat]

Dispy right, James4 14 wrong !

 

[James4_14]

Not only are there two groups, there will be two raptures.

That would be and epiphany for one group and phanaroo for the other.

 

[James4_14]

Dispy right, James4 14 wrong !

That is ok. 12 spies went in and only two came back with a good report. The majority were....WRONG! The majority vote caused 40 years' wandering. So......voting in the majority does not mean a thing in a positive sense.

 

[Dispy]

Acts 28 is the dispensational boundary and was caused by rejection of Christ.. The mystery in Ephesians and Colossians was "hid IN God" never before revealed until Paul received the revelation while in prison in Rome in 63 AD. This calling is a NEW creation. All distinctions between Israel and the Gentiles are wiped out. It is a new and higher calling to the Heaven far above all where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God.
We are not tied in to any of the promises made to Abraham. His promises were for an earthly Kingdom and the New Jerusalem that descends from Heaven. Neither of the two are "far above all".
When our calling was made known in Ephesians and Colossians this revelation fulfilled the word of God. Nothing can be added or taken from it. This mystery is not the mystery of Christ as some assume.
Our "church" did not begin at Pentecost. There was not a Gentile in the bunch. Israel was the only entity in view there.

Our calling is the only one chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world:

***Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation (overthrow) of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

If Acts 28 is the beginning of the dispensation of Grace, Why isn't he preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" prior to that.

I do believe that the Church, the Body of Chirst began with the conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts 9, and confirmed in 1 Tim. 1:16.

 

[riverrat]

james4 14 wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat

Dispy right, James4 14 wrong !
​

That is ok. 12 spies went in and only two came back with a good report. The majority were....WRONG! The majority vote caused 40 years' wandering. So......voting in the majority does not mean a thing in a positive sense.

Neither does voting in the majority mean a thing in a negative sense.

Are we taking a vote?

 

[James4_14]

If Acts 28 is the beginning of the dispensation of Grace, Why isn't he preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" prior to that.

I do believe that the Church, the Body of Chirst began with the conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts 9, and confirmed in 1 Tim. 1:16.

Paul describes his training for the Kingdom gospel right here:
***Gal 1:11, 16-18, 23
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

In verse 23 Paul tells us what message he preachedAFTER his conversion:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times pastnowpreacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
At the time Saul (Paul) did this persecution, we only had the Kingdom-faith and Kingdom-gospel proclaimed at Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria by the twelve and their disciples. Paul admits in verse 23 that he preached the SAME FAITH as the twelve AFTER he had been under the training brought to him by the Lord’s revelation when at Arabia and Damascus.
Paul persecuted in ignorance. He was NOT aware of any revelations such as the twelve had. Paul had listened to a little of Stephen, Peter and Philip but it was in a superficial way.

 

[James4_14]

james4 14 wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat

Dispy right, James4 14 wrong !

​

Neither does voting in the majority mean a thing in a negative sense.

Are we taking a vote?

I was just pushing your leg a little on that one.

 

[Danoh]

James 4 14, you'll have to do better than twist a passage to your own pretext, the passage reads "they had heard only that he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."

It reads they "had heard" and "only that" and "the faith which once he destroyed." Gal. 1 and 2 detail a confusion Paul there declares he went up to Jerusalem - "by revelation" - to clear up.

To read into that one passage what you do is - at best - faulty study. It is crystal clear in Acts that these people were completely confused as to what was going on. As clear as it is in Paul's letter to the Galatians that the Galatians had been confused.

What was the faith which once he destroyed? Was it the gospel of the kingdom, or was it faith in the very foundation of both gospels - Christ.

What part of that Two-Fold aspect "of faith" evident in the statment "why persecutest though Me," isn't clear to you? What part of "through faith which is in Me," isn't clear?

What part of "that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles," isn't clear?

Study depends on what and how we ask ourselves what we do, as much as it does on what and how we ask the Scriptures we are studying, and that as a whole. How do you ask yourself that? Do you weigh it out in both directions, do you weigh it out from your previous conclusions alone, or do you compare verse with verse no matter what your conclusions might be up to the point of your present understanding, ever willing to let God's Word be true and yourself a liar?

I suspect yours is a combination of the first two; for here you are basing things on a passage which, because it is unclear in some aspects, on its own, could as a result easily be twisted to go in various directions by anyone who comes along depending on what they want it to say.

Its no wonder you and yours are so adamant about/in your error - you read things into things.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

 

[James4_14]

Danoh:
I do know what is clear. It is also with clarity I perceive that in your zeal to detract that you overlooked that to which I was responding.
My response was to show that Paul DID preach the Kingdom message prior to Acts 28.

The difference in his belief before and after the event on the road to Damascus was that he NOW accepted Christ a the "sent One".
The "Kingdom faith" of which he destroyed was the Kingdom faith that included Christ as King which was not to his liking.

Before Acts 28:28 this was Paul's preaching:
***Rom 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
What were those promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? I was a promise for an EARTHLY Kingdom in the future.

AFTER Acts 28 Paul turned to the Gentiles alone. Israel is no longer FIST. Israel is now numbered among the gentiles and all are on an equal plane.

***Eph 3:1-2
3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles (ethnos...nations),
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:

Hebrews uses the figure “rent veil” and Ephesians uses the figure “middle wall”. The veil set aside the law of the type and shadow under which the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest (Hebrews 9:8) and the middle wall set aside the ordinances which caused enmity. Both of these figures have access in view (the one for the Hebrew and the other for the church of the one Body and neither to be confused with the church which is HIS body). One set aside the law of Moses and the other set aside the decrees of Acts 15.
***Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And the larger context is this (minus details):
Ephesians 2:
1-3 IN TIMES PAST. Children of wrath
4-10 BUT GOD. Made us sit together …..(entirely new realm of blessings)
That pair was salvation by Grace.
11-12 IN TIMES PAST. Aliens and strangers
13-19 BUT NOW. “one new man” ….(an entirely NEW creation)
The alienation was caused by the fact that Gentiles had been born into a disadvantage (in a dispensational view) no matter the merit or lack thereof.
At the very moment the truth of the Mystery was made known this was ALL cancelled out. This brings BOTH groups of believers into an entirely NEW position. “Made us sit together in heavenly places” is a place of Glory NEVER before revealed to be enjoyed by a believer in ANY previous calling.
“To make in Himself of twain one new man”is a completely NEW creation and NOTHING less than that. The word translated “to make” in Ephesians 2:15 is ktizo ....“to create”. Itoccurs elsewhere in the N.T. and only in Ephesians 2:15 is it translated “to make”. The word is used in Rom. 1:25 of the Creator Himself. It is used as the creation of the world as in Mark 13:19. It is also used in the creation of all things in Colossians 1:16. Where the word “new”(which qualifies the creation) is used of creation....old things (2 Cor. 5:17) and.....former things (Rev. 21:1) pass away, and come no more into mind (Isa. 65: 17).
The CHANGE in status between Jew and Gentile by putting them on the same plane is by no means the full Truth of the matter. BEFORE Acts 28:28 there was a distinction between Jew and Gentile and the Gentiles were subordinate. The church of the Mystery is NOT an evolution but is a NEW CREATION. “For to make (create) in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”
Ok. Now we will look at the word “twain” which is “duo”. “Duo” has been translated “two” many times. We also see it in Ephesians 2:14, 16 and again in verse18. Also noted is that the two words show there is more than one group involved for one cannot be termed “both”, or “two”. Both groups have been named and they are....believing Israel and......believing Gentile......(circumcision and uncircumcision). From Pentecost up to Acts 28 (in that dispensation) they NEVER were in a relationship in which they could be termed “one body”. This inequality was still in view concerning the wild olive grafted into the good olive tree and maintained the aspect it was contrary to nature and that position (insubordinate) remained until the end of Acts.
The new creation of Ephesians did not in ANY way turn the wild olive into cultivated ones but the fact is all that belonged to Israel was temporarily suspended at the divorce in Acts 28.

 

[James4_14]

If Acts 28 is the beginning of the dispensation of Grace, Why isn't he preaching "the gospel of the kingdom" prior to that.

I do believe that the Church, the Body of Chirst began with the conversion of Saul/Paul in Acts 9, and confirmed in 1 Tim. 1:16.

I believe you would agree that 1 Timothy 1:16 belongs to all believers. The problem in understanding is that all believers do not belong to the same "company" but it is assured that Christ is "all and in all".