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It isn't until we get to Paul's epistles that we see that it is faith apart from any works of righteousness.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(God was looking at the crosswork when those in time past were demonstrating their faith with works...He could forgive them based on the crosswork...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past..that's just not about our past sins, but the sins of those living before the cross.)
But now....God wants NO WORKS...it's faith alone in what He accomplished already for us.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
To him that WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH....
This is not saying that it was the "works" themselves which made them acceptable to God.Those who "fear him" obey their conscience and by doing so they can be described as "working righteousness".biblebeliever123 said:Contrast Romans 4:5 and Titus 3:5 (above) with
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
It doesn't say that working righteousness is what makes one acceptable.Instead it describes those who are acceptable.eph3Nine said:"he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him"...two fold obedience...faith plus works.
Yes,but the Lord did not say that that was a requirement to inherit eternal life.Or are we supposed to teach that one of the requirements for inheriting eternal life is that we must forsake our families?The verse you used says that those who forsook ALL those things would inherit eternal life.
As I said,the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will receive eternal life.There is nothing dishonest about this interpretation.The only alternative would be that in order to inherit eternal life it is necessary to forsake one's family,and that is ridiculous.So you arent honestly dealing with what these verses say. It means exactly what it says.
How do we reconcile Paul's words that Abriham was justified by faith apart from works with James statement "that by works a man is justified,and not by faith only"?James 2:24 and James 2:14 tell us that faith was always accompanied by works
for them in Israels program...James 2:17 says the same thing.
eph3Nine,eph3Nine said:The program was clearly faith PLUS works for the Jew. To say anything different ISNT being honest with the scriptures.
JerryShugart said:eph3Nine,
Please cease from accusing me of being dishonest with the Scriptures.
You fail to address the verses which I quoted to demonstrate that the Jews were saved by grace through faith just as we are.
If salvation was by faith plus works then why did Peter say the following?:
""But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are"(Acts15:11).
Paul makes it plain that the believing "remnant" out of the nation of Israel were saved by grace apart from works:
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).
You fail to address these verses and then accuse me of being dishonest with the Scriptures.And you also ignore the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).
In His grace,--Jerry
Why do you not address the verses which I provided that proves that your ideas in regard to how the Jews were saved are in error?eph3Nine said:You are still mixing programs here and making fuzzy the clear lines of distinction that God makes between the programs. A few scriptures OUT of context and from both programs does NOT a point make!
Please try to be more clear in your presentation...cuz Im havin more and more trouble aligning myself with you as a right divider.
While the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth the Jews were saved when they were "born of God" by believing in His Name,the Name of Jesus Christ,the Son of God.biblebeliever123 said:What was the gospel of salvation for the nation Israel before they were set aside in unbelief (temporarily)? Was it Christ died for their sins, was buried, and rose again for their justification...and thru simple faith in that and that alone they were saved by grace through faith apart from works?
Yes,it was not until Paul was it "revealed" that believers in all dispensation are saved by "grace".But just because it was not revealed until Paul does not mean that men before Paul were saved by faith plus works.That is clearly the message of the gospel of the grace of God for salvation in THIS dispensation....the gospel of salvation message preached by the apostle Paul but it is not the gospel message preached before Paul.
The words of the Lord Jesus there were addressed to Jews and were in effect before the Body of Christ was even in existence.And His words cannot be misunderstood--those who believed what He was saying received eternal life at the time they believed Him:If you take Jn.5:24 as applicable to the salvation of a person in the body of Christ, then what do you do with John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: FOR SALVTION IS OF THE JEWS.
The same thing you do with the epistles of Paul that were addressed to Timothy.Those words are not addressed to the Body of Christ but nonetheless the doctrine contained in those epistles are applicable to the Body of Christ.If you go to James for doctrine for the church the body of Christ than what do you do with James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad, greeting.
The words there are in regard to those who lived before the law (Abraham) and those who lived under the law (David) as well as those who have not the law (the uncircumcised).The blessing of being justified before the Lord "apart from works" comes to all who believe,no matter when they lived:In THIS dispensation a person is saved by grace through faith APART from any works. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
But not for salvation.David lived under the law but Paul states that he was justified before the Lord "apart from works".It's clear that in time past they had to show the expression of faith as required.
Yes,Paul says "but now" it is revealed.It was not revealed until Paul was converted that the believer is saved apart from works.Take note of the words that indicate 'change' from something in 'time past'...words like "BUT NOW"; "AT THIS TIME".
Yes,Paul says "but now" it is revealed.It was not revealed until Paul was converted that the believer is saved apart from works.
You say that I am twisting what Paul says but evidently you did not even bother to see what he actually said:eph3Nine said:Now theres a clever twisting of what scripture really teaches. Shame shame shame.
But eph3Nine I have given you verses where it is plain that Peter and the rest of the Jewish believers were saved by "grace" but you have not addressed those verses.When Paul says BUT NOW, he isnt talking about it being the same all along and NOW they SEE it! NO no no no!!!!! Hes talkin about BEFORE a believer wasnt saved without a demonstration of faith that God REQUIRED, and NOW that has CHANGED!
I address all of the verses which have been presented in an attempt to prove that the Jews were saved by faith plus works.TSK< TSK, TSK....shakes head and looks in dismay at Jerry.
I told you exactly what it means.But you ignore that just as you continue to ignore the verses that prove that your ideas are in error.eph3Nine said:The operative phrase is BUT NOW....this is obvious in its meaning.
In times PAST, righteousness was WITH THE LAW; it was their program. BUT NOW, the righteousness without the law is manifested....what does this mean?
I never saw anyone addess them.Can you tell me where I can find where they were dealt with "quite nicely"?I dont need to address your other scriptures or comments as they have already been dealt with quite nicely by others and found wanting.
To you it is true,but I would suggest that you study "dispensationalism" a little more before you go about lecturing others about what they know or do not know about the subject.You are making statements that simply do not coincide with what rightly dividing the Word is all about. I dont mean to be unkind, but this is really the truth of the matter.
You did not "discuss" this with me at all.I answered the points that you raised but you just ignored the verses that demonstrate that your ideas are in error.biblebeliever123 said:I will not continue to belabor this point with you. We are obviously not agreeing on this and I won't be discussing it with you any further.
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