Twelve "In" or "Out"?

[JerryShugart]

There are some Mid-Acts Dispensationalists that teach that the Twelve Apostles were not in the Body of Christ.

This is a very important question because the answer tells us whether or not the General epistles(Hebrews,James,1Peter,2Peter,1John,2John,3John,and Jude) are for those who are members of the Church,which is His Body.

What say ye?

In His grace,--Jerry

”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[JM]

Hummmm....I'd like to see this question answered. Are the Apostle part of the new covenant or the Body of Christ...I'd say the new covenant made with Israel and keep the body of Christ as being a separate group.

I could be wrong, and often am.



Quote:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Last Adam, the Second Man, the Firstborn of a new race.


​

​

...He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have supremacy. Colossians 1:18


​

​

Figuratively, He is our Head and we (Christians collectively) are His body on earth. Since He is sovereign over the entire universe, it is fitting we acknowledge Him as Lord of our personal lives.



​

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed Him to be head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way. Ephesians 1:22,23



​

To extend the metaphor, Christendom suffers from a spinal cord injury having lost connection with the Headand the life of the First Adam is primarily resident.

He [the unspiritual minded] has lost connection with the Head [Christ Jesus], from whom the whole Body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. Colossians 2:19



​

http://withchrist.org/knowhim.htm

 

[Markea]

There are some Mid-Acts Dispensationalists that teach that the Twelve Apostles were not in the Body of Christ.

This is a very important question because the answer tells us whether or not the General epistles(Hebrews,James,1Peter,2Peter,1John,2John,3John,and Jude) are for those who are members of the Church,which is His Body.

What say ye?

In His grace,--Jerry

”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

Firstly, concerning the Epistles which you have mentioned.. they are God breathed of course and therefore profitable for the man of God.. they're living and abiding as you know.

As for your thoughts concerning the Apostles.. that seems to be a bit more in depth although the scriptures help us here as well obviously.. I like how Ephesians 2 speaks of these things..

For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It's also good to bring out 1 Cor 3 which speaks of the foundation which our lives are built upon..

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I find it interesting that the foundation is simply called Jesus Christ in this portion of the scriptures.. which would imply that the Apostles (who also comprise the foundation) are within the Body of Christ..

Then of course we have the Revelation of Jesus Christ which seems to make it conclusive..

Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God:

...

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This would lead me to say that the twelve Apostles are part of the Body of Christ.

 

[Markea]

It's also important to consider this...

..in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him...

 

[Dispy]

There are some Mid-Acts Dispensationalists that teach that the Twelve Apostles were not in the Body of Christ.

This is a very important question because the answer tells us whether or not the General epistles(Hebrews,James,1Peter,2Peter,1John,2John,3John,and Jude) are for those who are members of the Church,which is His Body.

What say ye?

In His grace,--Jerry

”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

I am one of those Mid-Acts dispies who believe that the 12 Apolstles ARE NOT in the Body of Chrit, however, they are in the "kingdom of God."

The Body of Christ has a home in heaven to look forward to, NOT an earthly kingdom.

2Cor.5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS."

Philippians 3:20 "For our conversation (citizenship NIV) is in heaven..."

The twelve will be sitting on 12 thrones in the earthly kingdom that Jesus will establish.

Matthew 19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelved tribes of Israel.

Also Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my father's kingdom."

Based on the above passages I have come to the conclusion that "kingdom saints" will inherit the earth; while "Body saints" will inherit heaven.

The book of Hebrews is written to Jewish believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the GRACE of God." They are "Body saints."

James through Jude were written to those believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to. They are the same ones that James, Cephas (Peter), and John agreed with Paul, in Galatians 2:9, that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews) while he went to the heathen (Gentiles).

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[nwmsugrad]

The Body of Christ has a home in heaven to look forward to, NOT an earthly kingdom.

Where will the church be (location) during the earthly kingdon (1000 years) ?

 

[JerryShugart]

Based on the above passages I have come to the conclusion that "kingdom saints" will inherit the earth; while "Body saints" will inherit heaven.

Dispy,

When Paul was converted he was told by the Lord Jesus that the Gentiles would share the same inheritance as those who had previously been sanctified:

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me"(Acts26:18).

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified"(Acts20:32).

James through Jude were written to those believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to. They are the same ones that James, Cephas (Peter), and John agreed with Paul, in Galatians 2:9, that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews) while he went to the heathen (Gentiles).

If the teaching in those epistles are for a time after the dispensation of grace comes to an end then why would we see Peter telling those who received his epistle to be "stewards of the manifold grace of God"?:

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God"(1Pet.4:10).

Those who received the Jewish epistles were told to be looking for the appearance of the Lord Jesus and at that time they would be made like Him.That is not teaching for those living under the kingdom program:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is"(1Jn.3:2).

The twelve will be sitting on 12 thrones in the earthly kingdom that Jesus will establish.

Yes,and we will be sitting with the Lord Jesus on the earth when He will be ruling from the throne of David:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne"(Rev.3:21).

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?"(1Cor.6:2).

I am one of those Mid-Acts dispies who believe that the 12 Apolstles ARE NOT in the Body of Chrit, however, they are in the "kingdom of God."

During the "kingdom of God" the people in that kingdom will be under the law (see Matthew 5:21,22).But Peter tells those who received his epistles that they are "free" and at "liberty" from the law:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God"(1Pet.2:16).

This language is almost identical to the words of Paul when he tells those in the churches at Galatia that they are "free" and at "liberty" from the law:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"(Gal.5:13).

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage"(Gal.5:1).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"

http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Dispy]

The Body of Christ has a home in heaven to look forward to, NOT an earthly kingdom.

Where will the church be (location) during the earthly kingdon (1000 years) ?

2Cor.5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS."

Philippians 3:20 "For our conversation (citizenship NIV) is in heaven..."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[nwmsugrad]

Dispy,

How many years will the church reside in heaven?

Where will Christ be located during the earthly kingdom (1000 years) ?

 

[Dispy]

Dispy,

How many years will the church reside in heaven?

1Thess.4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of Godd: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD."

Where will Christ be located during the earthly kingdom (1000 years) ?

Acts 3:20 "And sh shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you;
21 Whom the heaven must receive untill the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophest since the word began."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[lightninboy]

The twelve were "in."

 

[kmolson]

Hi Jerry:

Hebrews, James, 1Peter, 2Peter, 1John, 2John, 3John,and Jude are Jewish epistles written to Jews, (there is NO ethnic distinction within the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13)), therefore are not written to the Body of Christ.

The following are some notes that I’ve copied from the Pauline Bootcamp Series.

“Israel is under the authority of the angels. The angels are referred to as Israel's lords (Dan 10:16, 17, 19; 12:8), gods (Psm 8:5; 82:1, 6; 1 Cor 8:5), and spirits (Ez 1:21; 2:2 .cp. Heb 7:7).
In this regard the angels are the overseers of Israel's Kingdom and are the channel of blessing to the nation.

The angels were and will be the administrators of Israel's Kingdom as indicated in the following verses:

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In contrast to Israel, the Body of Christ is in administrative authority over the angels. This is seen directly in 1 Cor 6:3:

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The Body of Christ is under the One Lord, namely Christ, the Second Person of the Triune Godhead 1Co 8:5,6.
Each member of the Body of Christ has a direct relationship to the One Lord (as the Head to the Body) without angelic mediation/ministry of any kind 1Ti 2:5 Ro 8:34,26
Paul received revelation directly from the One Lord Ac 9:3-6 1Co 9:1 2Co 12:1-7 Gal 1:12 Eph 3:3, and not through the disposition of angels (cf. II.A.4 Ex 3:2 Ac 7:53 Ga 3:19 Ez 2:2 He 2:2)
Body of Christ is administratively superior to the angels 1Co 5:3-5 6:1-3 Ga 1:8,9 Eph 3:10 1Ti 1:20|
Note: a Jew would not, neither do even other angels, accuse or rail against angels cf. 2Pe 2:10,11 Jude 1:9.
Paul's anathema upon angels is contra Peter in 2Pe 2:10,11. Note: Ac 27:23,24 describes an angel in submission to Paul (compare the use of paristemi in vv. 23 and 24).”

One Hope of Paul's gospel vis-a-vis many hopes of Twelve's gospel: Matt. 5:5; 15:26–28; 19:28, Luke 22:30, Acts 1:6–7, I Pet. 1:10; 2:9–12, Rev. 21:10–14,24–26.
Peter's gospel and ministry concern the eternal hopes of Israel plus the 70 nations, and Peter's hope is to chair the Sanhedrin of Israel's future earthly empire.

Paul's hope is to sit in the Third Heaven with Christ (II Cor. 12:1–4, Eph. 1:20; 2:6) over angels.

Twelve “Out”.

Ken.

 

[Dispy]

Hi Jerry:

Hebrews, James, 1Peter, 2Peter, 1John, 2John, 3John,and Jude are Jewish epistles written to Jews, (there is NO ethnic distinction within the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13)), therefore are not written to the Body of Christ.

The following are some notes that I’ve copied from the Pauline Bootcamp Series.

“Israel is under the authority of the angels. The angels are referred to as Israel's lords (Dan 10:16, 17, 19; 12:8), gods (Psm 8:5; 82:1, 6; 1 Cor 8:5), and spirits (Ez 1:21; 2:2 .cp. Heb 7:7).
In this regard the angels are the overseers of Israel's Kingdom and are the channel of blessing to the nation.

The angels were and will be the administrators of Israel's Kingdom as indicated in the following verses:

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In contrast to Israel, the Body of Christ is in administrative authority over the angels. This is seen directly in 1 Cor 6:3:

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The Body of Christ is under the One Lord, namely Christ, the Second Person of the Triune Godhead 1Co 8:5,6.
Each member of the Body of Christ has a direct relationship to the One Lord (as the Head to the Body) without angelic mediation/ministry of any kind 1Ti 2:5 Ro 8:34,26
Paul received revelation directly from the One Lord Ac 9:3-6 1Co 9:1 2Co 12:1-7 Gal 1:12 Eph 3:3, and not through the disposition of angels (cf. II.A.4 Ex 3:2 Ac 7:53 Ga 3:19 Ez 2:2 He 2:2)
Body of Christ is administratively superior to the angels 1Co 5:3-5 6:1-3 Ga 1:8,9 Eph 3:10 1Ti 1:20|
Note: a Jew would not, neither do even other angels, accuse or rail against angels cf. 2Pe 2:10,11 Jude 1:9.
Paul's anathema upon angels is contra Peter in 2Pe 2:10,11. Note: Ac 27:23,24 describes an angel in submission to Paul (compare the use of paristemi in vv. 23 and 24).”

One Hope of Paul's gospel vis-a-vis many hopes of Twelve's gospel: Matt. 5:5; 15:26–28; 19:28, Luke 22:30, Acts 1:6–7, I Pet. 1:10; 2:9–12, Rev. 21:10–14,24–26.
Peter's gospel and ministry concern the eternal hopes of Israel plus the 70 nations, and Peter's hope is to chair the Sanhedrin of Israel's future earthly empire.

Paul's hope is to sit in the Third Heaven with Christ (II Cor. 12:1–4, Eph. 1:20; 2:6) over angels.

Twelve “Out”.

Ken.

I AGREE.

 

[Dennis_Hogg]

There s another passage that can be added to this discussion. Rom 11:29 "the gifts and calling og God are irrevokable"
The context is that Israel must get the promises previously promised to them. Ultimately, this is the principle that makes us dispensationalists. God will once again re-gather His nation Israel as He promised. The twelve were promised a special position in this earthly Kingdom, and this promise cannot be broken. Matt 19:28

The Body was given a completely different inheritance. This inheritance is heaven, as others have stated.

Another point, is that the Body was formed from the scattered, concluded in unbeleif Gentiles, and the scattered, concluded in unbeleif Jews. God took two groups of losers, and made this new creation. Saved Jews are thus ineligible, as they were not the scattered unworthy group that all of us once were.

 

[kmolson]

There s another passage that can be added to this discussion. Rom 11:29 "the gifts and calling og God are irrevokable"
The context is that Israel must get the promises previously promised to them. Ultimately, this is the principle that makes us dispensationalists. God will once again re-gather His nation Israel as He promised. The twelve were promised a special position in this earthly Kingdom, and this promise cannot be broken. Matt 19:28

The Body was given a completely different inheritance. This inheritance is heaven, as others have stated.

Another point, is that the Body was formed from the scattered, concluded in unbeleif Gentiles, and the scattered, concluded in unbeleif Jews. God took two groups of losers, and made this new creation. Saved Jews are thus ineligible, as they were not the scattered unworthy group that all of us once were.

Very good points Dennis.

Ken.

 

[marke]

Firstly, concerning the Epistles which you have mentioned.. they are God breathed of course and therefore profitable for the man of God.. they're living and abiding as you know.

As for your thoughts concerning the Apostles.. that seems to be a bit more in depth although the scriptures help us here as well obviously.. I like how Ephesians 2 speaks of these things..

For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It's also good to bring out 1 Cor 3 which speaks of the foundation which our lives are built upon..

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I find it interesting that the foundation is simply called Jesus Christ in this portion of the scriptures.. which would imply that the Apostles (who also comprise the foundation) are within the Body of Christ..

Then of course we have the Revelation of Jesus Christ which seems to make it conclusive..

Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God:

...

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This would lead me to say that the twelve Apostles are part of the Body of Christ.

THANK GOD SOMEONE CAN READ!

 

[marke]

It's also important to consider this...

..in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him...

Sorry, I don't see this mentioned in the Bible.

So it must be nonsense. Fairy tales. Garbage. Junk. Mis-information, fables or other nonsense of man, not God.

Don't be deceived. Many will come in His name, but you will know them by their fruits, not by their words.

God Bless.

 

[marke]

Hi Jerry:

Hebrews, James, 1Peter, 2Peter, 1John, 2John, 3John,and Jude are Jewish epistles written to Jews, (there is NO ethnic distinction within the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13)), therefore are not written to the Body of Christ.

The following are some notes that I’ve copied from the Pauline Bootcamp Series.

“Israel is under the authority of the angels. The angels are referred to as Israel's lords (Dan 10:16, 17, 19; 12:8), gods (Psm 8:5; 82:1, 6; 1 Cor 8:5), and spirits (Ez 1:21; 2:2 .cp. Heb 7:7).
In this regard the angels are the overseers of Israel's Kingdom and are the channel of blessing to the nation.

The angels were and will be the administrators of Israel's Kingdom as indicated in the following verses:

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In contrast to Israel, the Body of Christ is in administrative authority over the angels. This is seen directly in 1 Cor 6:3:

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The Body of Christ is under the One Lord, namely Christ, the Second Person of the Triune Godhead 1Co 8:5,6.
Each member of the Body of Christ has a direct relationship to the One Lord (as the Head to the Body) without angelic mediation/ministry of any kind 1Ti 2:5 Ro 8:34,26
Paul received revelation directly from the One Lord Ac 9:3-6 1Co 9:1 2Co 12:1-7 Gal 1:12 Eph 3:3, and not through the disposition of angels (cf. II.A.4 Ex 3:2 Ac 7:53 Ga 3:19 Ez 2:2 He 2:2)
Body of Christ is administratively superior to the angels 1Co 5:3-5 6:1-3 Ga 1:8,9 Eph 3:10 1Ti 1:20|
Note: a Jew would not, neither do even other angels, accuse or rail against angels cf. 2Pe 2:10,11 Jude 1:9.
Paul's anathema upon angels is contra Peter in 2Pe 2:10,11. Note: Ac 27:23,24 describes an angel in submission to Paul (compare the use of paristemi in vv. 23 and 24).”

One Hope of Paul's gospel vis-a-vis many hopes of Twelve's gospel: Matt. 5:5; 15:26–28; 19:28, Luke 22:30, Acts 1:6–7, I Pet. 1:10; 2:9–12, Rev. 21:10–14,24–26.
Peter's gospel and ministry concern the eternal hopes of Israel plus the 70 nations, and Peter's hope is to chair the Sanhedrin of Israel's future earthly empire.

Paul's hope is to sit in the Third Heaven with Christ (II Cor. 12:1–4, Eph. 1:20; 2:6) over angels.

Twelve “Out”.

Ken.

Notice it was a HOPE, not a guarantee. In fact, Paul was concerned he wouldn't make the cut, so why are so many on this forum sure they will? Jesus Himself says "many are called, but few are chosen". Don't be deceived by wrong teaching.

God Bless.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

There are some Mid-Acts Dispensationalists that teach that the Twelve Apostles were not in the Body of Christ.

This is a very important question because the answer tells us whether or not the General epistles(Hebrews,James,1Peter,2Peter,1John,2John,3John,and Jude) are for those who are members of the Church,which is His Body.

What say ye?

In His grace,--Jerry

”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

the believers before the cross were offer the earth and eternal life after the 2nd coming ....

Yet those who lived past the cross could up grade their promise [heb 11:39-40 ] since the believer gets eternal life upon believing plus many more up grades!

did these 12 OT apostles believe that Jesus is God!

 

[BigNorsk]

I would say such a conclusion would not be consistent with Ephesians 4.

I would say anyone who excludes them has to start over because they took a wrong turn someplace.

Marv