Turning water into fermented wine?

[k4c]

Turning water into fermented wine was not a hard thing for Jesus to do. But to have the SDA turn fermented wine into grape juice? Now that's amazing!!!

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 When you meet together, you are not really interested in the Lord’s Supper. For some of you hurry to eat your own meal without sharing with others. As a result, some go hungry while others get drunk. What? Don’t you have your own homes for eating and drinking?

 

[OntheDL]

You know how many this type of threads(on wine) you have started in this forum? You have rejected our reasoning every time. Why can't you just stop being disagreeable and agree to disagree?

 

[k4c]

OntheDL; You know how many this type of threads(on wine) you have started in this forum?

God is patient and long suffering and so am I.

You have rejected our reasoning every time.

Have you ever taken the time to listen to your reasoning?

Why can't you just stop being disagreeable and agree to disagree?

Because the false belief that drinking wine, in itself, is a sin has brought much unnecessary guilt, condemnation and division among family and friends for no reason. It's very dangerous to teach something as being sinful, when the Bible does not, because people who study and know the truth can't receive things that are true from someone pushing wine consumption as being sinful. So you see, what I'm sharing here goes way beyond you or I. Sorry, I have to stay on God's side...

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

OntheDL has a point. The SDA church is not going to give up advocating teetotalism any time soon, no matter how much you argue against it. I won't pass any judgement on your decision to stay, but since that's what you have decided to do, the SDA teaching on wine kinda goes with the territory. It's not going anywhere.

 

[Kira Light]

Turning water into fermented wine was not a hard thing for Jesus to do. But to have the SDA turn fermented wine into grape juice? Now that's amazing!!!

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 When you meet together, you are not really interested in the Lord’s Supper. For some of you hurry to eat your own meal without sharing with others. As a result, some go hungry while others get drunk. What? Don’t you have your own homes for eating and drinking?

What do you make of EGW's thoughts on this wine?

The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine. The wine that Christ made from water at the marriage feast of Cana was the pure juice of the grape. This is the “new wine ... found in the cluster,” of which the Scripture says, “Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it.” Isaiah 65:8.

Ellen G. White Writings

 

[Kira Light]

EGW got her views on health mostly from a 45 minute vision in Otsego in 1863. If this vision wasn't from God, then who? How can you believe some of the visions were from God and others were not? How do you trust someone who cannot tell the difference between a real vision and a fake one?

 

[k4c]

What do you make of EGW's thoughts on this wine?

Ellen G. White Writings

God tells us not to despise prophecy but to test everything and hold on to that which is good.

 

[k4c]

EGW got her views on health mostly from a 45 minute vision in Otsego in 1863. If this vision wasn't from God, then who? How can you believe some of the visions were from God and others were not? How do you trust someone who cannot tell the difference between a real vision and a fake one?

We know that food, in the last days, will not be like it was in days past so a vision on health is a good thing.

Not eveything Paul spoke came from the Spirit but it made sense. If what she says makes sense then it's good counsel.

 

[Kira Light]

God tells us not to despise prophecy but to test everything and hold on to that which is good.

So God gives EGW a vision in which he tells her we should stop using alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea. What do I do with that? Do I test it and throw it out? Do I categorize it under "good ideas" but not necessarily follow it?

When EGW creates brand new laws with regards to Tobacco, what do you do with it?

I have seen in vision that tobacco was a filthy weed, and that it must be laid aside or given up. Said my accompanying angel, “If it is an idol, it is high time it was given up, and unless it is given up, the frown of God will be upon the one that uses it....
I saw that Christ will have a church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing to present to His Father, ... as He leads us through the pearly gates of the New Jerusalem.... After Jesus has done so much for us, will any-one be undecided whether to deny himself of the filthy weed for His sake?

She is shown a church without a spot or a wrinkle and an angel tells her the frown of God is on smokers. This is a brand new commandment. Thou shalt not smoke. How do I test this?

 

[k4c]

Kira Light;So God gives EGW a vision in which he tells her we should stop using alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea. What do I do with that? Do I test it and throw it out? Do I categorize it under "good ideas" but not necessarily follow it?

When EGW creates brand new laws with regards to Tobacco, what do you do with it?

She is shown a church without a spot or a wrinkle and an angel tells her the frown of God is on smokers. This is a brand new commandment. Thou shalt not smoke. How do I test this?

Lets say that in our time government and citizens were battling over the use and control of alcohol, tabacco, coffee and tea. Would it be a good thing for God's people to abstain from these worldy issues regarding such things? Should God's people join in the fight and condone the use of such things that are addictive by nature and cause health and financial problems? To me, this is not a new law, but rather, common biblical sense built on kingdom principles already estabished by Jesus. The problem I have is when we tweak the Bible to fit modern day issues. It would be like saying we should not use computers because in the last days knowledge will increase and we don't want to be part of that.

The Bible allows for the use of moderate fermented wine use. But as we see in the world today, alcohol use is glorified and it's excessive use is encouraged. As a matter of fact, most people can't even have fun without it and you're looked down upon for not drinking it.

The other problem I have is when we take a good thing like encouraging abstinence from addictive things and make the Bible say it's a sin to partake of them. There are many good things that are addictive but the potential for addiction is not what makes something sinful. If that were the cause then exercise would be a sin in itself. And don't get me wrong, I have seen exercise as a sinful thing in the lives of some people I know because their body becomes their idol.

Let us take good advise from our spiritual leaders when they see God's people heading for a fall over modern day issues but let us not tweak the Bible in the process. The Bible, led by the Spirit, should still be the one to govern the conscience in the end.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Lets say that in our time government and citizens were battling over the use and control of alcohol, tabacco, coffee and tea. Would it be a good thing for God's people to abstain from these worldy issues regarding such things? Should God's people join in the fight and condone the use of such things that are addictive by nature and cause health and financial problems? To me, this is not a new law, but rather, common biblical sense built on kingdom principles already estabished by Jesus. The problem I have is when we tweak the Bible to fit modern day issues. It would be like saying we should not use computers because in the last days knowledge will increase and we don't want to be part of that.

The Bible allows for the use of moderate fermented wine use. But as we see in the world today, alcohol use is glorified and it's excessive use is encouraged. As a matter of fact, most people can't even have fun without it and you're looked down upon for not drinking it.

The other problem I have is when we take a good thing like encouraging abstinence from addictive things and make the Bible say it's a sin to partake of them. There are many good things that are addictive but the potential for addiction is not what makes something sinful. If that were the cause then exercise would be a sin in itself. And don't get me wrong, I have seen exercise as a sinful thing in the lives of some people I know because their body becomes their idol.

Let us take good advise from our spiritual leaders when they see God's people heading for a fall over modern day issues but let us not tweak the Bible in the process. The Bible, led by the Spirit, should still be the one to govern the conscience in the end.

well, everything is nice if it works to your advantage.

SDA (MANMADE) RULE: THOUGH SHALT NOT DRINK - because it cause problems...

BIBLE: (my wording) take the 3rd years tithing and buy yourself and others some booze so that you may learn to be a fearful person before the LORD !

yep, the last one is my favorite... so If GOd allowed for a strong drink in the old testament times (bought by money from tithings (EVEN THAT)) then why should I go around and tell innocent people that they can never drink again if they were to join the SDA... and maybe EGW vision was conditional or temporary anyway so we shouldnt bother with it

 

[k4c]

well, everything is nice if it works to your advantage.

SDA (MANMADE) RULE: THOUGH SHALT NOT DRINK - because it cause problems...

BIBLE: (my wording) take the 3rd years tithing and buy yourself and others some booze so that you may learn to be a fearful person before the LORD !

yep, the last one is my favorite... so If GOd allowed for a strong drink in the old testament times (bought by money from tithings (EVEN THAT)) then why should I go around and tell innocent people that they can never drink again if they were to join the SDA... and maybe EGW vision was conditional or temporary anyway so we shouldnt bother with it

In Revelation God tells us that in the last days people will be deceived through sorcery. That word, sorcery, in the original language, is the word, pharmaceutical, which refers to drugs.

Could God have used EGW to point this out to His people? Is there an excessive use of stimulate drugs in our daily lives today like never before? Every day there are dozens of TV ads for drugs that can cause more harm and even death then what the symptoms you have now can. There are more drugs, chemicals and stimulants in our food today then ever before. We have a drug or chemical for everything today from sexual distinction to children's behavior. Believe me when I say I have no problem with the insight of EGW. I do have a problem with tweaking the Bible to say something is sinful when in fact it's not.

 

[prophecyistrue]

God is patient and long suffering and so am I.



Have you ever taken the time to listen to your reasoning?



Because the false belief that drinking wine, in itself, is a sin has brought much unnecessary guilt, condemnation and division among family and friends for no reason. It's very dangerous to teach something as being sinful, when the Bible does not, because people who study and know the truth can't receive things that are true from someone pushing wine consumption as being sinful. So you see, what I'm sharing here goes way beyond you or I. Sorry, I have to stay on God's side...

I'm happy to see a man stand up for truth, one who rightly divides the WHOLE word of God, clearly if one takes all the scripture where wine is mentioned or alluded to, it is without a doubt a drink that contained differing amounts of alcohol. the sin is drunkeness, yet we see from apostle Paul if someone thinks something is a sin, even though its not a sin, its not right to rub his nose in it so to speak, I would probably just leave those folks alone, its nearly impossible to change the mindset of people who have done and taught things for generations, its at that point pride takes over, and whether they know their wrong they still won't change their stance, Its a strange thing.....pride

 

[prophecyistrue]

What do you make of EGW's thoughts on this wine?



Ellen G. White Writings

I'm guessing people were really stupid back then and couldn't tell the difference between wine and grape juice, because even one guest is quoted saying you brought the best out last

 

[k4c]

I'm happy to see a man stand up for truth, one who rightly divides the WHOLE word of God, clearly if one takes all the scripture where wine is mentioned or alluded to, it is without a doubt a drink that contained differing amounts of alcohol. the sin is drunkeness, yet we see from apostle Paul if someone thinks something is a sin, even though its not a sin, its not right to rub his nose in it so to speak, I would probably just leave those folks alone, its nearly impossible to change the mindset of people who have done and taught things for generations, its at that point pride takes over, and whether they know their wrong they still won't change their stance, Its a strange thing.....pride

Amen...

Alcohol use can be a very sensitive subject for some people because of past abuse from an alcoholic parent or spouse or maybe they themselves are prone to alcoholism. I have no problem whatsoever if someone personally believes drinking wine is sinful for whatever reason. God never tells us to try and convince them that it's not sinful. God does tell us not to drink it in front of them because they, according to God, are weak or sensitive because of their belief.

The battle I'm fighting here is for biblical truth, not personal choices. Once we establish something as being sinful, even if it's not, it has the potential to separate us from God. It affects our families, friends, social gatherings and even where we feel we should or should not work ie: waitress having to serve wine with meals. It can affect our water baptism, positions held in church and even church membership itself.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

How many can see and understand Christ? To exercise love and appreciation for each other is wise and obeying the master. You give up your present rights being as a Christian to have God gold-plate your heavenly rights to your very soul. Why are you disobediant? The very nature of arguing and fighting each other is not of Christ or his Father. We each have work to do from the Lord, but how many are busy about this, our Father's will given to us by Jesus? Why is your faith so weak?

 

[k4c]

How many can see and understand Christ? To exercise love and appreciation for each other is wise and obeying the master. You give up your present rights being as a Christian to have God gold-plate your heavenly rights to your very soul. Why are you disobediant? The very nature of arguing and fighting each other is not of Christ or his Father. We each have work to do from the Lord, but how many are busy about this, our Father's will given to us by Jesus? Why is your faith so weak?

So we shouldn't expose error in order to seek truth? We should speak truth so that truth can make you free?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

So we shouldn't expose error in order to seek truth? We should speak truth so that truth can make you free?

You already have brother... let the Holy Spirit do it's work.

 

[prophecyistrue]

How many can see and understand Christ? To exercise love and appreciation for each other is wise and obeying the master. You give up your present rights being as a Christian to have God gold-plate your heavenly rights to your very soul. Why are you disobediant? The very nature of arguing and fighting each other is not of Christ or his Father. We each have work to do from the Lord, but how many are busy about this, our Father's will given to us by Jesus? Why is your faith so weak?

Yes! I wish you were making this quote to apostle Paul when he was disputing Peter and his behavior, HOW unchristian!.... standing up for sound doctrine is paramount next to the true gospel of repentance, no one needs to make excuses for doing this, as we can plainly see the body of Christ has not stood up for some time now, and as a result we have such a wide span of what true Christianity is and what is true doctrine. yeah lets all just ignore what false teachers are putting forth for another hundred or so years, we should expect to find a perfect description of the church as 2 Timothy 3 depicts

 

[k4c]

You already have brother... let the Holy Spirit do it's work.

Thanks...sometimes I forget that part of the good work.