Trying to grasp TE

[Extirpated Wildlife]

I've read the one, to a point, in the TE forum regarding "what is TE", but I stopped reading after the person asking was beginning to argue against it, figuring I wasn't going to get any more information as how Me, Myself and I want the information.

I understand the E in TE. I'm trying to put the T on TE to understand what is being talked about. If there are definitely beliefs within TE, then I need a TE1, TE2 or a TER, TEP...etc.. I don't expect everyone to agree but I want to know who I have my beefs with. Maybe I don't have a beef with TE1, but I do have a major disagreement with TE2. But I certainly am incapable of finding the Truth without God showing me, since before we were Christians we were all haters of God except when He drew us to Him. But I'm sure people in here will argue against that too. Oh well.


What does Theistic mean to you within TE? For me, I think we say God in a way that makes it sound monotheistic. I don't think many Christians mean to do that because we do believe in the Trinity, but we forget that when we say God it does sound monotheistic. And in a case of creation, I want to make sure I have a grasp on this. Theism doesn't neccesarily refer to the Christian God. It can be used in other religion. And so I need clarification on what people are meaning. When you say God, do you mean God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost all in one?

This is the first thing. I will only ask questions as answers are made. I just don't want to lose track of my thoughts, but I probably will anyway. I'm so ADD.

 

[notto]

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

How do TEs interpret sin as it pertains to the 3rd chapter of Genesis?

 

[notto]

How do TEs interpret sin as it pertains to the 3rd chapter of Genesis?

That sin entered the world through man.

 

[gluadys]

What does Theistic mean to you within TE? Theism doesn't neccesarily refer to the Christian God. It can be used in other religion. And so I need clarification on what people are meaning. When you say God, do you mean God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost all in one?

In general you are right. A person can be a theist without being a Christian and a trinitarian. That is one reason it is called theistic evolution, because it is not a stance held only by believing Christians but by also by believing Muslims, believing Jews, and other theists.

But on this forum, since the TEs are trinitarian Christians, the God we refer to is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, God in Three Persons, who all participated in creation and are properly referred to as God, the Creator.

ok?

 

[billwald]

God created a "real" physical universe which doesn't need to be micromanaged for continued existance.

 

[Didaskomenos]

Theistic evolutionists are simply evolutionists who aren't atheists.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

God created a "real" physical universe which doesn't need to be micromanaged for continued existance.

So you don't believe he has a hand in what happens today? The Bible says he knows how many hairs are on my head. How micro are you going at?

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

What are the branches of Christian Theistic evolution? And what percentage are in each branch?

 

[gluadys]

What are the branches of Christian Theistic evolution? And what percentage are in each branch?

No one knows. We are not organized in any way. Don't even have a web-site or a magazine. But you might check out the thread named Full Spectrum of Origins Beliefs. It lists 3-4 flavours of theistic evolution along with several varieties of creationism.

 

[Didaskomenos]

So you don't believe he has a hand in what happens today? The Bible says he knows how many hairs are on my head. How micro are you going at?

But he does have a hand in what happens today. Sometimes (if not always) His purposes are accomplished by His sovereign plan. This is in fact precisely the opposite of saying He has no hand in what happens today. Even the TE's who believe in the most naturalistic form of evolution, with the least "special creation" involved, would agree that the creation of the universe only happened because He willed it. Is He sovereign, or does He have to routinely break His own rules to get anything done?

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

But he does have a hand in what happens today. Sometimes (if not always) His purposes are accomplished by His sovereign plan. This is in fact precisely the opposite of saying He has no hand in what happens today. Even the TE's who believe in the most naturalistic form of evolution, with the least "special creation" involved, would agree that the creation of the universe only happened because He willed it. Is He sovereign, or does He have to routinely break His own rules to get anything done?

Break what rule to get things done?

 

[Didaskomenos]

Break what rule to get things done?

God was the one who wrote the laws of nature. Miracles are interventional acts of divinity that circumvent natural laws (the supernatural invading the natural). I'm not one who always supposes that there are no miracles, but it's also much too limiting to say that in order for Him to accomplish anything, He must break in and work a miracle: He wrote the laws of nature (including any which guide evolution), and would thus be responsible for anything created by those laws.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Do you mean that to the absolute intent of your words? I doubt there is anyone, no matter if they say what you said in words, that truly believes that. It is one thing to say that. It is another thing to live your life by those words. You do agree that living and saying something are two different things, don't you. I certainly believe there are possibly millions of Americans calling themselves Christian that aren't. But who am I to judge.

 

[shernren]

I understand your need to categorize TEs and quickly figure out which ones you'll have a problem with but I have two very, very short and simple words for you to repeat to yourself 5 times a day before going on CF

Listen.

Ask.

It's impossible to split TEs into categories. When I was newer here I used to poke fun at creationists who saw me making TE posts and automatically assumed I didn't believe in Adam and hammered me with Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 arguments. I've outgrown that now but I (hope I) have learnt the lesson: never assume somebody believes in something.

Another time was when I posted this argument that the same Bible interpretation that gives rise to YECism also gives rise to transubstantiation (the belief that you eat Jesus' actual flesh and blood during Holy Communion) and a YEC (Critias) said, "Well, I do", and my point was wasted. Never assume somebody believes in something.

When in doubt, ask. And listen carefully, and ask some more if what you're hearing is what the person is actually saying. If you come here with good intentions and being always willing to give your brothers and sisters the benefit of the doubt, you won't run into much trouble, and what trouble you do run into will probably be easily resolved.

 

[Didaskomenos]

Do you mean that to the absolute intent of your words? I doubt there is anyone, no matter if they say what you said in words, that truly believes that. It is one thing to say that. It is another thing to live your life by those words. You do agree that living and saying something are two different things, don't you. I certainly believe there are possibly millions of Americans calling themselves Christian that aren't. But who am I to judge.

Who are you talking to? I'm having a hard time trying to imagine the manner in which one can live one's life by the debate over whether God intervenes miraculously or whether He directs events sovereignly. Perhaps you're talking to someone else?

 

[The Lady Kate]

God created a "real" physical universe which doesn't need to be micromanaged for continued existance.

Precisely... God didn't just create things, He created an entire system in which those things could operate. Think of it like a car engine... God can tweak and tune up the engine at any time to improve it, or He can let it run on its own as it should...

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Who are you talking to? I'm having a hard time trying to imagine the manner in which one can live one's life by the debate over whether God intervenes miraculously or whether He directs events sovereignly. Perhaps you're talking to someone else?

This might be the most confusing exchange ever in this forum.

I was talking to you and now I have no clue what your saying.