True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

JLB777 said:

Is there some "other" law of Moses that I'm not aware of?

JLB

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Did you know this one?

Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Is this physical or spiritual? And isn't this mentioned in the New Covenant?

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realising that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’a]'>[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger Rom 2:1-6

One participant on this thread has quoted verses 6&7 of the above. We need to read the word as a cohesive whole, not just randomly bring forth selective verses.
In the above we see Paul telling his readers if they pass judgement on another they are condemning themselves. For those who condemn others do they same things they condemn others for. I think we can assume this means law breaking. You don't have to break the4 same laws as you condemn others for, but by breaking the law yourself you condemn yourself by condemning others for doing that which you yourself do.
We then come to the verses placed so often on this thread. So what is Paul truly telling us? For he has already stated all men alike fail to do what they should do. If all men alike fail to act as they should, how can any man attain to what is written in verse 7? It isn't adding up is it? So Paul has given an overall picture of how men should live, but though they should live to that standard, they fail to do so.
Forward to chapter 3:10

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are ALL under the power of sin

Now when did Paul make this charge? Obviously in the previous two chapters. So Paul has made the charge Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. Now if they are all under sin they are not going to achieve what is written in a verse in a section showing people they are all under sin and in the flesh condemned are they(ch2:6). So what is the overall picture Paul has been showing his readers thus far in the book of romans?

As it is written:


‘There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.’b]'>[b]
13 ‘Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practise deceit.’c]'>[c]
‘The poison of vipers is on their lips.’d]'>[d]
14 ‘Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.’e]'>[e]
15 ‘Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.’f]'>[f]
18 ‘There is no fear of God before their eyes.’g]'>[g] 10-19

Uncomfortable reading isn't it. Paul has been showing his readers the whole world stands hushed and guilty before God according to the law/being good enough/living a holy enough life for God. So what is the conclusion?


Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law(observing the law); rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 19&20

So we see, no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by works of the law/observing the law. So no one is going to be declared righteous in God's sight by living a good enough life. For to live a good enough life would have to be by observing the law if you think about it. We only know of God's standards from the law.
Now if we progressed in romans, we would see that a righteousness apart from the law brings sin not to be our master. Unfortunately, no one in this thread wants to accept the Christian has a righteousness before God apart from observing the law, so there isn't much point in proceeding with Pauls message because most of you want to reject it, and thereby the solution to sin not being your master.

EmSw said:

Did you know this one?

Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Is this physical or spiritual? And isn't this mentioned in the New Covenant?

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Deut 10:16 ain't the new covenant

EmSw said:

Did you know this one?

Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Is this physical or spiritual? And isn't this mentioned in the New Covenant?

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Of course this is the intent, that physical circumcision points to, however the law of Moses required Physical Circumcision.

48 And when a stranger dwells with youand wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.” Exodus 12:48-49


Does this refer to physical circumcision or spiritual circumcision.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:2-3


The law of Moses required Physical Circumcision in the flesh of the foreskin.


The New Covenant does not require this.



JLB

stuart lawrence said:

Sin is transgression of the law

Therefore if we observe the law we do not commit sin

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Is it a sin to observe this law of Moses Today?

Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Yes or No?



JLB

JLB777 said:

No sir. The law of Moses requires that a person do all the law, or be cursed.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10

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And, there was a blessing to those who obeyed the commandments. No one was under a curse just because they were of the works of the law. They were under a curse for not obeying the commandments. Are you saying no one was blessed in the Old Testament?

Exodus 39
42 According to all that the Lord commanded Moses, so the children of Israel made all the work.
43 And Moses did look upon all the work, and, behold, they had done it as the Lord had commanded, even so had they done it: and Moses blessed them.

Numbers 22:12
And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

Deuteronomy 2:7
For the Lord thy God hath blessed thee in all the works of thy hand:

Deuteronomy 12:7
And there ye shall eat before the Lord your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee.

You need to read all of Deuteronomy 28 to actually see what the blessings and curses are. Not every one was cursed as you suppose.

JLB777 said:

The first thing a person is required to do, in order to keep the law of Moses is become physically circumcised.

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JLB777 said:

And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:3

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Since your eyes are set on the physical only, you will never see the spiritual side of the law.

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

JLB777 said:

Now if the law of Moses was just the 10 commandments, then I would agree with you, but since it's not then to keep the law of Moses requires a person to keep all the law, which included putting to death a person for picking up sticks to kindle a fire of the Sabbath.

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Is this verse from Exodus 31:15 a part of the law of Moses?

JLB

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Do you not agree the law is spiritual?

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual:

Why do you keep looking at the physical side of the law?

JLB777 said:

Of course this is the intent, that physical circumcision points to, however the law of Moses required Physical Circumcision.

48 And when a stranger dwells with youand wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.” Exodus 12:48-49

Does this refer to physical circumcision or spiritual circumcision.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:2-3

The law of Moses required Physical Circumcision in the flesh of the foreskin.

The New Covenant does not require this.

JLB

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You are keeping your eyes on the flesh.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled spiritually.

JLB777 said:

Is it a sin to observe this law of Moses Today?

Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Yes or No?

JLB

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Why would observing God's law be a sin?

Again, you eyes are only on the physical. The law is spiritual.

JLB777 said:

Is it a sin to observe this law of Moses Today?

Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Yes or No?



JLB

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I am afraid all you are doing with such a ridiculous reply is showing you are unable to answer questions concerning the core of the new covenant. I repeatedly told you the question was not in connection to the mosaic law. I assume you are young and haven't been a Christian very long. Hopefully you will learn more as your walk continues

EmSw said:

Why would observing God's law be a sin?

Again, you eyes are only on the physical. The law is spiritual.

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He has to write something to avoid answering my very simple question, so he has honed in on that, despite repeatedly being told I am not referring to the mosaic law

Open Heart said:

Jesus on the cross is referring to his death being accomplished. But 5:18 says until ALL is accomplished, and ALL is not accomplished. For example, the gospel is to be spread to every living creature, Christ is to return, the resurrection is to take place, we will have the judgment.

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Well, that depends on how you see things. I suggest it is a compelling "coincidence" that the gospel writer has Jesus say "it is accomplished" when this is the exact same wording Jesus uses to describe the conditions required in order for the Law of Moses to pass away.

My argument is what it is: there is a well-established history of Jewish use of such "end of the world" language to refer to much more commonplace events in the real world.

You appear to believe the Law of Moses is still in force. This puts you in the difficult position of having to say that Jews should stone adulterers. And it forces you to reject Paul's claims that the Law has come to an end. However, no doubt you will disagree that Paul declares the Law has come to an end. But, if so, what do you make of this:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

stuart lawrence said:

I am afraid all you are doing with such a ridiculous reply is showing you are unable to answer questions concerning the core of the new covenant. I assume you are young and haven't been a Christian very long. Hopefully you will learn more as your walk continues

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JLB777 said:

I addressed your question.


It's a sin to observe the law of Moses, because it requires the murder of people that don't keep the Sabbath holy or who commit adultery.

Murder is a sin, and a violation of God's eternal law.


5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 1 Timothy 1:5-7


JLB

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You cannot address my question.

Are you going to give me the scriptural support to Show Abraham and his descendants knew all of the Ten Commandments previous to Moses being given the law at Sania?

I wont hold my breath!

Open Heart said:

ANY law. Mosaic law is still here.

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Are you saying that you believe that God wishes Jews to continue to follow the Law of Moses?

That would mean that adulterers would be stoned, and all sorts of other illegal stuff would be happening.

But that's kind of beside the point since I believe the New Testament declares that the Law of Moses has been retired.

Open Heart said:

It doesn't say what you think it says.

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Well, what does it say, then. Here is the text. I am interested in seeing how you defend the proposition that this text does not declare an end to the Law of Moses. Please be sure to address this text and explain what you think it means. I trust you realize that a simple declaration that "it doesn't say what you think it says" is not a full answer. Obviously Paul meant to tell us something when he wrote these words. I think he means what he says - the law is no longer in force. What do you think it means?

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Open Heart said:

The apostles still obeyed Jewish law and taught other Jewish believers to do so also. James bragged that there were thousands of Jewish believers in Jerusalem who were all zealous for Torah.

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The Bible describes all sorts of behaviors that do not align with the will of God. The fact that the apostle obeyed Jewish Law does not mean that from "God's point of view" the Law was not retired. Remember, Paul completely disagreed with Peter's view that Gentiles and Jews should eat separately (effectively, Peter believed the Law still applied and Paul challenged him on it).

The general point is this: The fact that a behavior is reported in the Bible is not equivalent to an endorsement of that behavior.

Open Heart said:

I guess I don't know what it means.

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I will support you. I don't see anything wrong with Jewish christians wanting to obey what they can of torah as long as it isn't being done to attain salvation but out of love for God.
We are all christians, but I recognise the unique place the Jews have in Christianity. Indeed when I have chatted to Jewish christians I have always been struck by how well they know the scriptures. They are rich in knowledge. And I'm not into replacement theology. I know a time is coming when all Israel will be saved who are alive at the time. The nations of the earth will attack Jerusalem (zech12&14) and Christ will reveal himself to them and fight for them and their enemies will be defeated. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the lord
God bless

stuart lawrence said:

If Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness can a person be made unrighteous for their imperfections concerning that law( their sin)

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You are not playing fair here since you are simply assuming a particular meaning of the statement that "Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness".

And the meaning you assume appears to be this: Now that Christ has arrived, righteousness has nothing to do whatsoever with our behavior, that is, our failure to keep the law.

If your assumption turns out to be correct (I don't think it does, of course) then, indeed, a person could not be made "unrighteous" for their failure to keep the law.

One problem with your view is that "law" here is the Law of Moses and the Gentile was never under it. Therefore, it would be illogical for Paul to tell Gentiles that their righteousness has nothing to do with keeping a Law they were never under.

But your interpretation of 10:4 is not the only possibility. Another possibility - the one I believe is correct - is that Paul is saying this: The Law of Moses is part of an unfolding plan of redemption and God's purpose or goal (end) in giving the Law is that it would lead to a point in the plan of redemption where people get righteousness through what Jesus did on the Cross.

Now for the key point. If, repeat if, my interpretation is correct, the 10:4 statement is entirely silent on the matter of whether a person can, after all, be found to be unrighteous at a coming judgment based on how they have lived. All Paul is saying (in 10:4), according to my interpretation, is that the Law has led us to the point in time where Christ is revealed as the agent through which we get righteousness. But whether we need to "behave ourselves" in this Christ-centred system of righteousness remains an open question.

But Paul settles that question in Romans 2:6-7, a text you repeatedly refuse to deal with, almost certainly because you have no explanation for it within your broad interpretation:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

JLB777 said:

“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16


The word until used by Jesus and Paul, shows that the law was indeed in force UNTIL IT WASN'T.

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And when is it "wasn't"? Are you saying the prophecies of Daniel are now no longer appropo? After all, those prophecies "were until John."

Open Heart said:

And when is it "wasn't"? Are you saying the prophecies of Daniel are now no longer appropo? After all, those prophecies "were until John."

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Does it say "prophecies"?


The law and the prophets were until John.


JLB

stuart lawrence said:

Are you going to give me the scriptural support to Show Abraham and his descendants knew all of the Ten Commandments

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I never mentioned Abraham's descendants.

I said Abraham... received God's laws and commandments directly from Him.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:5


I didn't say it was only the ten commandments, as going where the Lord sends us and to whom the Lord sends us and to specifically do what the Lord commands us are all considered HIs Commandments.


JLB

stuart lawrence said:

I am afraid all you are doing with such a ridiculous reply is showing you are unable to answer questions concerning the core of the new covenant. I repeatedly told you the question was not in connection to the mosaic law. I assume you are young and haven't been a Christian very long. Hopefully you will learn more as your walk continues

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Do you observe this law of Moses? Yes or No?

Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15




JLB