True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

EmSw · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
Can you read?????

Observing the law of Moses is a sin, because we are not to murder an innocent person for picking up sticks on the Sabbath when there is no law in effect that commands this action.

The law of Moses DOES NOT put to death an innocent person. Where did you get that?

JLB777 said:
15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. .
Exodus 31:15

http://www.christianforums.com/bible/exodus/31:15/

Murder and put to death are not the same. Murder can be premeditated, accidental, avenged, or intentional. It can also mean an assassination. Murder is a result of hate in the heart, unless accidental.

To put to death is a penalty, execution, or to dispatch. To put to death does not involve any hate of the heart. It carries out the penalty for murder.

By your reasonings, every judge, DA, and jury member who sentenced anyone to death is guilty of murder. That is twisted logic at best.

JLB777 said:

By observing the law of Moses a person would have to obey this law, and since it's obsolete whoever carried out this law would be guilty of murder.

Click to expand...

JLB777 said:
JLB

Read up on murder in the Old Testament. If every killing was murder, no judge would survive in Israel by your logic. This would make the Great Judge guilty of murder also.

expos4ever · Nov 16, 2015

Open Heart said:
I think you mean the opposite.

You are right, I meant the opposite.

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
Do you obey the law of Moses?

The law requires you to offer burnt offerings of animals, and to travel to Jerusalem to keep the Passover, as well as the feast of Pentecost.

Do you stone people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

You no more observe the law of Moses than the man in the moon.

JLB

Sin is transgression of the law

Therefore if we observe the law we do not commit sin

However, as you don't understand the new covenant, you cannot respond to the question, for you are afraid to endorse Paul's core Gospel message for you think it would result in a licence to sin.
So what do you do? Think up any response you can, however crazy it is!

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
Do you obey the law of Moses?

The law requires you to offer burnt offerings of animals, and to travel to Jerusalem to keep the Passover, as well as the feast of Pentecost.

Do you stone people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

You no more observe the law of Moses than the man in the moon.

JLB

Pure deflection, due to not understanding the new covenant.

Do you accept there is law in place for the Christian? Can you even answer that question, or must you deflect from it?

Im not talking about the mosaic law lol.

If you accept there is law in place for the Christian, when we observe that law do we keep it?

Why do I think it is just going to be more deflection. If you understood the covenant you wouldn't have to deflect from answering of course.

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
Do you obey the law of Moses?

The law requires you to offer burnt offerings of animals, and to travel to Jerusalem to keep the Passover, as well as the feast of Pentecost.

Do you stone people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

You no more observe the law of Moses than the man in the moon.

JLB

These responses are truly awful, you cant address the questions.

EmSw · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
Do you obey the law of Moses?

Sure. Have you murdered anyone? If not, then you have obeyed the law of Moses. Do you love the Lord God and your neighbor? If yes, then you have obeyed the law of Moses.

JLB777 said:
The law requires you to offer burnt offerings of animals, and to travel to Jerusalem to keep the Passover, as well as the feast of Pentecost.

In the natural, yes, that was required of the law.

Are you part of the New Covenant? If yes, did you know the law is written in your heart? Being written on your heart, it is no longer physical, but spiritual.

Matthew 5
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Anger proceeds from the heart (where God's law is written), thus making it a spiritual offense.

Matthew 5
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Lust proceeds from the heart (where God's law is written), thus making it spiritual.

This is written in Matthew 22
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Being from the heart, the law is now spiritual, based upon love to God and the neighbor. Upon the two great commandments hang, or are summed up in these two commandments.

Matthew 23
25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

Jesus said the inside of man is full of extortion, self-indulgence, dead men's bones and ALL uncleanness. With all uncleanness of the heart, no one is able to keep the law spiritually, no matter how innocent they appear on the outside. Man looks to the external of man, but God looks upon the heart.

Jesus said to first cleanse the inside, that the outside may be clean also. Ezekiel said to cast away all iniquity to make ourselves a new heart. Cleanse the inside, and the law can be kept through loving God and the neighbor.

JLB777 said:
Do you stone people to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

This is not the law, but the penalty or consequence of breaking the law.

1 John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

John stresses hate is the cause of murder; hate proceeds from the heart, making it spiritual. No murderer has eternal life in him, but rather, eternal death. Eternal death is the consequence of hate.

JLB777 said:
You no more observe the law of Moses than the man in the moon.

JLB

The prisons are full of those who don't observe the law of Moses!

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

(By the Christian not having a righteousness of observing the law, Christ must have died for all their sins at calvary, past, present and future. (Rom3:20)
By Christ being the end of the law unto righteousness, Jesus must have died for all the sins of the Christian, past, present and future. (Rom10:4)
By the Christian having a righteousness apart from the law, Christ must have died for all their sins at calvary, past, present and future (Rom3:21&22)
Anyone who does not understand that does not understand the new covenant

JLB777 · Nov 16, 2015

EmSw said:
Sure. Have you murdered anyone? If not, then you have obeyed the law of Moses.

No sir. The law of Moses requires that a person do all the law, or be cursed.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10

The first thing a person is required to do, in order to keep the law of Moses is become physically circumcised.

And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:3

Now if the law of Moses was just the 10 commandments, then I would agree with you, but since it's not then to keep the law of Moses requires a person to keep all the law, which included putting to death a person for picking up sticks to kindle a fire of the Sabbath.

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Is this verse from Exodus 31:15 a part of the law of Moses?

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 16, 2015

EmSw said:
In the natural, yes, that was required of the law.

Is there some "other" law of Moses that I'm not aware of?

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 16, 2015

EmSw said:
The prisons are full of those who don't observe the law of Moses!

The prisons are full of those that observe the law of Moses, but only in part.

JLB

JLB777 · Nov 16, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
These responses are truly awful, you cant address the questions.

I addressed your question.

It's a sin to observe the law of Moses, because it requires the murder of people that don't keep the Sabbath holy or who commit adultery.

Murder is a sin, and a violation of God's eternal law.

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 1 Timothy 1:5-7

JLB

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
I addressed your question.

It's a sin to observe the law of Moses, because it requires the murder of people that don't keep the Sabbath holy or who commit adultery.

Murder is a sin, and a violation of God's eternal law.

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 1 Timothy 1:5-7

JLB

lol
I have already told you I am not speaking of the mosaic law! But you have to continue to pretend it is relevant as a way of deflecting from answering the question. It is sad really.
The law God desires us to keep is written on our mind and placed on our heart by the holy Spirit at the point of conversion(heb 10:16&17) I hope you understand that, it is one of the two core points on which the Christian faith stands
When a person observes the law placed on their heart, is it correct to say they have not sinned when they observe it?

So is it back to the mosaic law now lol

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
I addressed your question.

It's a sin to observe the law of Moses, because it requires the murder of people that don't keep the Sabbath holy or who commit adultery.

Murder is a sin, and a violation of God's eternal law.

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 1 Timothy 1:5-7

JLB

As I told you yesterday, you are where I was 20 years ago,

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
I addressed your question.

It's a sin to observe the law of Moses, because it requires the murder of people that don't keep the Sabbath holy or who commit adultery.

Murder is a sin, and a violation of God's eternal law.

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart,from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. 1 Timothy 1:5-7

JLB

The heart of the law never got removed, the penalty for breaking it got removed. Hence, when Paul speaks of not being under the law/dying to the law, he means a law of righteousness.

JLB777 · Nov 16, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Do you accept there is law in place for the Christian?

I most certainly do.

It's God's eternal laws and commandments that Abraham walked in and obeyed 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

...Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:5

Abraham learned these laws from God directly, as he kept them by faith.

By faith means he heard these laws given to him from the mouth of God spoken directly to Abraham from the Lord Himself.

By walking before God in His presence Abraham was empowered to walk in truth, just exactly the way the Lord called Adam to live, and just the way we as Christians are called to live...

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

The laws and commandments that Abraham kept were God's laws that are eternal, and govern His kingdom.

These laws and commandments were already in place and a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, when the law of Moses was added. Galatians 3:19

When the law of Moses become obsolete, what vanished away, is what was added, not the laws and commandments that were already a part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.”
Genesis 17:1-2

Walk before Me...
Walk with Me...
Walk in My presence and learn from Me...

That is what Abraham was required to do.

That is what Adam was called to do.

That is what we are called to do.

The same Lord who walked with Adam in the Garden, is the same Lord who called Abraham to walk before Him, and made Covenant with him, is the same Lord that became flesh... and dwelt among us and died for our sins.

Jesus Christ, Who is YHWH, the Lord God.

The Abrahamic Covenant has been "refreshed" and has become the New Covenant.

Not a different Covenant, but a refreshed Covenant.

Same Lord. YHWH, The Lord God of Israel.

JLB

Bible Highlighter · Nov 16, 2015

EmSw said:
The law of Moses DOES NOT put to death an innocent person. Where did you get that?

Murder and put to death are not the same. Murder can be premeditated, accidental, avenged, or intentional. It can also mean an assassination. Murder is a result of hate in the heart, unless accidental.

To put to death is a penalty, execution, or to dispatch. To put to death does not involve any hate of the heart. It carries out the penalty for murder.

By your reasonings, every judge, DA, and jury member who sentenced anyone to death is guilty of murder. That is twisted logic at best.

Read up on murder in the Old Testament. If every killing was murder, no judge would survive in Israel by your logic. This would make the Great Judge guilty of murder also.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." (Galatians 5:2-3).

The temple veil has been torn from top to bottom (not bottom to top) and the priesthood order and it's sacrifices are no longer acceptable. We do not sacrifice animals anymore. Jesus Christ is our perfect sacrifice.

We are also not obligated to keep the dietary laws of the Old Covenant, either. We can now eat unclean animals.

We are also told by Jesus not to render an eye for an eye according to the OT, but we are rather to turn the other cheek.

So it's clear we are not under the Law of Moses anymore.

For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

...

JLB777 · Nov 16, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
The heart of the law never got removed

I can agree with this... it was the law of Moses that was added, not the 10 commandments.

Only what was added, has been removed, ie; the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

The ordinances such as the animal sacrifices, clothing laws, feast days, food laws, Sabbath requirements...

JLB

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
I most certainly do.

It's God's eternal laws and commandments that Abraham walked in and obeyed 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

...Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:5

JLB

Really? So Abraham observed a seventh day Sabbath?
The Ten Commandments were already in place before Saniai, everyone knew them?
Scripture please to support that belief.

I see you failed to answer the question. Sigh!!

If a person observes the law placed on their heart do they not sin when they observe it?

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
I most certainly do.

It's God's eternal laws and commandments that Abraham walked in and obeyed 430 years before the law of Moses was added.

...Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:5

JLB

The law that is in place includes the law written on stone(2Cor3:3). The only law written on stone was the Ten Commandments.
Please produce scriptural support to show all of the Ten Commandments were known to Abraham and his descendants before the law was given at Saniai

stuart lawrence · Nov 16, 2015

JLB777 said:
I can agree with this... it was the law of Moses that was added, not the 10 commandments.

Only what was added, has been removed, ie; the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

The ordinances such as the animal sacrifices, clothing laws, feast days, food laws, Sabbath requirements...

JLB

If a person observes the law placed on their heart do they not sin when they observe it?

Why can you not answer the above? Do you not know the answer?

Only you know what observing the law means, you have proved that from your statements concerning the mosaic law

True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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